Point shooting practice

[TACC1]

We had beautiful Fall weather today, so I took a
friend to the range. I got him practicing at home,
with a 442 with C-T grips and snap-caps. Started out at
the range with small caliber snubs, and then moved to
the 442. The guy is a pretty good shot anyway, so transitioning
to the 442 had him shooting minute-of-bad-guy right away.
Since I was worried that I might be getting a little rusty,
myself, I joined in. Had fun doing it, and we'll go at it again
Monday, if time/work will permit. Tomorrow will be double-taps
and maybe some action with a 45 auto.
Thanks to "ogilvyspecial" for training materials and
moral support. TACC1

 

[mc5aw]

Since I've been practicing point shooting the past couple months, it's become very addictive. Range sessions have become much more enjoyable, and my PS skills have increased significantly. I think PS is a lost art ... hopefully TACC, Ogy, myself, and others can do our part to rejuvenate this vital (and practical) firearms skill set.

+1 to Ogy for the materials, advice, and support!

 

[old curmudgeon]

Something I have found that everyone else probably knows already, but worth mentioning.

I find that if I draw and bring the handgun to the center of my body, exactly in front of the buttons on my shirt, I easily hit a profile target in the center.

Some of the shots may be a little high and some a little low, but they are all in the center of the profile target.

So all shots are easily in an area that should stop an opponent.

And I can get the gun in that position in the time it takes to get the safety off, so no time is lost.

 

[Chuck1217]

I think PSing IS becoming more and more- popular?- it seems almost every gun magazine has had articles on it in the last 6 months. There's a new one-time magazine out, think it's published by the Combat Handgun folks, called HOME DEFENSE. I found it in my grocery store, so be on the lookout wherever you see gun mags. Pretty good stuff in there, by pretty well known 'experts.'

 

[mc5aw]

Chuck ... Are you referring to the annual American Handgunner Personal Defense Special Edition?

 

[Chuck1217]

No, it's called HOME DEFENSE. No, HOME DEFENDER- dated Fall 2012. Maybe it's been out a while but I don't think so, I always look for new mags, and never saw this one til the other day, Black background with a pic of one of those 2-tube KelTec shotguns. From Gun World magazine, same folks as Combat Handguns. Thi doesn't say much, but maybe you can link to something more informative.
Home Defender - Gun World

 

[jwnic]

Out of curiosity, how do you all train for point shooting?

 

[photoman]

Out of curiosity, how do you all train for point shooting?

Lots and lots of shooting with the same gun/grip/ammo combo. Or, you can take a class. The classes tend to be expensive but, I guess, so does shooting a lot.

There are some videos out there that you might find helpful too.

 

[jwnic]

Lots and lots of shooting with the same gun/grip/ammo combo. Or, you can take a class. The classes tend to be expensive but, I guess, so does shooting a lot.

There are some videos out there that you might find helpful too.

I guess I was looking for some specifics--just didn't word it very well! Searching the YouTube now!

 

[Jellybean]

I guess I was looking for some specifics--just didn't word it very well! Searching the YouTube now!

Actually there are quite a few different types of "point shooting". If you don't know the differences between them you can do more harm to your training than good.

The way I like the best is to learn how to grip your firearm by doing some bullseye type shooting. Then practice shooting targets by looking at them and learning how to hit what you are looking at.

There is a reason why many of the real gunfighters in history never wrote books about gunfighting, and that is it wouldn't fill up a whole page.

 

[old curmudgeon]

We had beautiful Fall weather today, so I took a
friend to the range. I got him practicing at home,
with a 442 with C-T grips and snap-caps. Started out at
the range with small caliber snubs, and then moved to
the 442. The guy is a pretty good shot anyway, so transitioning
to the 442 had him shooting minute-of-bad-guy right away.
Since I was worried that I might be getting a little rusty,
myself, I joined in. Had fun doing it, and we'll go at it again
Monday, if time/work will permit. Tomorrow will be double-taps
and maybe some action with a 45 auto.
Thanks to "ogilvyspecial" for training materials and
moral support. TACC1

You might start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_McDaniel

 

[Houdini1953]

I tried point shooting today and was surprised. The technique is to use a normal two handed grip and taking your index finger along side the weapon as if you were actually pointing at a target, then you pull the trigger with your middle finger now it is not bullseye shooting but it will hit the target.

I will try some more tomorrow with a new target and try to remember to either take a camera or save the target and will post the results!

 

[Chuck1217]

The technique- difficult to lay out for someone else. What is P-Sing? It's shooting without using the sights, plain and simple. Do you do it one-handed? Sure, in my opinion. The idea is to be able to hit someone/thing without using the sights. We are not going to have time to draw and take careful aim, thus the importance of PS-ing.
So, what are the connditions under which you'd P-S?
From the car- walking down the street- from your bedroom, den, etc.
The only way I can figure to practice, is shooting without using the sights from different positions. You may end up standing sideways like a duel- or facing front with no time to get the isocels or Weaver stance..or sitting down.
I simply practice without using the sights, both weak- and strong-hand, two hands...standing in different positions. As long as you have your hand, wrist, arm to use as a point of reference, to assist in aiming- that's practicing P-Sing. To me. As I said, each person, situation will be different, we simply cannot practice for every possibility.

 

[Jellybean]

The problem in explaining point shooting is that, while point shooting is basically described as "shooting without using the sights", there are so many ways to do it. The ones I've learned that I can recall off the top of my head are:

The techniques described by Houdini1953 above which was, and may still be, found on the internet. There was, is(?) a device that could be attached to the weapon to help.

Instinctive shooting by knowing the weapon very well and while focusing on the target the shooter lines the firearm on the target by hand-eye coordinatioin.

Pointing the gun like pointing a finger. This is the basic technique taught by Fairbairn and Sykes in "Shooting to Live", and may be the origin of the term "point shooting".

Pushing the gun at the target, like it is a pointy stick and you were going to poke a hole in the target.

While focusing on the target bring the gun into your peripheral vision and line it up on target.

Use the weight of the weapons barrel to feel when it is lined up on the target. Bill Jordan talked about this in his book "No Second Place Winner".

Keep the weapon locked in line with the arm, either from gun to elbow or gun to shoulder, and point them both together as one.

Muscle memory, just like the way it's used in sighted shooting except the sights are not used. This is probably the most common technique found in modern point shooting methods.

Gangsta shooting, which while it may not be very cost efficient is still pretty lethal.

There are many variations based on the above methods and while they all work on the range, they are not all equal in real gunfighting.

 

[mc5aw]

Gangsta shooting, which while it may not be very cost efficient is still pretty lethal.

Holding a handgun sideways at eye level, palm down, with your hand bent at 45* to your wrist, is not lethal ... it's idiotic. That's why Gangsta Style is not considered "point shooting" but rather "what's the point shooting" ...

 

[mbliss57]

Holding a handgun sideways at eye level, palm down, with your hand bent at 45* to your wrist, is not lethal ... it's idiotic. That's why Gangsta Style is not considered "point shooting" but rather "what's the point shooting" ...

I would beg to differ.. just because you don't like the technique based on who/ what class of characters used/uses it doesn't make it idiotic. I would bet that it works.. and works well.. for those who do use it or they would find a better way. I have never shot like that but I don't condemn what I don't know. Have you ever tried that method?

 

[photoman]

My understanding of the "gangsta style" shooting is to hold the gun high, with a downward angle with the gun rotated counter-clockwise +/- 90 degrees in the right hand.

I think you will find that holding the barrel off level will not work well for unsighted fire.

 

[mc5aw]

I would beg to differ.. just because you don't like the technique based on who/ what class of characters used/uses it doesn't make it idiotic. I would bet that it works.. and works well.. for those who do use it or they would find a better way.

I will take that bet any day, on any range, with any handgun.

I have never shot like that but I don't condemn what I don't know. Have you ever tried that method?

I have tried it, (once for the heck of it), and I quickly found it to be idiotic, and painful. It is a Hollywood and rap music/thug life contrivance, not a realistic way to fire a handgun with any accuracy or sense of knowing what one is doing.

The various methodologies associated with point shooting focus on a central concept ... intuitive aiming. Be it single-hand, off hand, two-hand, upright/crouching stance, etc., point shooting is designed to develop instinctive reactions with a handgun, sans use of handgun sights. I have been working with point shooting as of late, and have studied a great deal of literature on the subject. The gangsta style is nowhere to be found in the resources I have used.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

Jim Cirillo taught / advocated a tilted, canted, aiming
point shooting method that he called the, "Cirillo Cant."

His explanation of the style was comparing it to throwing a punch where you keep
the wrist locked in line with the arm. He said that it was especially effective
in reducing "limp wristing" when shooting one handed with the off, weak, hand.

 

[mc5aw]

Jim Cirillo taught / advocated a tilted, canted, aiming
point shooting method that he called the, "Cirillo Cant."

His explanation of the style was comparing it to throwing a punch where you keep
the wrist locked in line with the arm. He said that it was especially effective
in reducing "limp wristing" when shooting one handed with the off, weak, hand.

Ogy ... Louis Awerbuck is pictured using such a technique on the cover of his book. From what I've read, the hand, wrist, and upper arm are pushed directly outward, locking the elbow hinge as the lower arm comes into line with the upper arm. The hand/wrist end up naturally canted at 1-2 o'clock.

 

[Old TexMex]

Canted point shooting

Ogy ... Louis Awerbuck is pictured using such a technique on the cover of his book. From what I've read, the hand, wrist, and upper arm are pushed directly outward, locking the elbow hinge as the lower arm comes into line with the upper arm. The hand/wrist end up naturally canted at 1-2 o'clock.

My father taught me to use that very method with my left hand(I'm right handed) "if I was ever wounded..."
Who'd have thought....

 

[Houdini1953]

Alright I went to the range again today and remembered to keep the target. I again tried point shooting using my right index finger to actually point alongside the frame of the gun and pulled the trigger with my middle finger. It takes some getting used to but below is a photo:

I shot 50 rounds and hit the paper with all 50 at 5 and 8 yards! 5 in the red bullseye,4 in the 10 ring,14 in the 9 ring 8 in the 8 ring and 7 in the 7 ring, 6 did not hit the silhouette but did hit the paper. All in all not too bad for only my second time trying without using sights at all! I will work on trigger control and see if I can not improve a lot over these first attempts at not using sights!

 

[Jellybean]

Holding a handgun sideways at eye level, palm down, with your hand bent at 45* to your wrist, is not lethal ... it's idiotic. That's why Gangsta Style is not considered "point shooting" but rather "what's the point shooting" ...

There was a well known expert that printed an article saying pretty much the same thing as you did. It wasn't "effective". It sort of sounded odd since a local police officer was just buried about a week before the article ran and witness descriptions of the event pretty much described the shooter as using a "gangsta" style of using his weapon. Plus numerous other shootings where the victim was just as dead as anyone shot by any other credible style of shooting doesn't agree either.

There is a reason I classify it as a form of point shooting, in spite of what all the "experts" have to say about it. When talking to them and watching their hands I noticed that they really do point that way, even if they're just showing you where they live or giving you directions. Modern concepts of point shooting are really pathetic since everyone is just looking for a "new product" to market, most of them are no better than using sights.

 

[mc5aw]

Jellybean ... You make a valid point. A lethal bullet is a lethal bullet irrespective of how it's fired. My point is simply that the "gangsta style" is not a fundamentally sound methodology for traditional point shooting. I've known enough range officers and firearms trainers who would immediately bounce anyone pulling gangsta garbage on a firing line.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

Ogy ... Louis Awerbuck is pictured using such a technique on the cover of his book. From what I've read, the hand, wrist, and upper arm are pushed directly outward, locking the elbow hinge as the lower arm comes into line with the upper arm. The hand/wrist end up naturally canted at 1-2 o'clock.

That was exactly what Jim advocated, getting the extra resistance,
support, from not only the wrist, but the elbow & shoulder as well.

I'm by no means an expert, but I was taught point shooting back in the mid-70's
by a close friend who used the technique many times in the "real world."

His method was more "old school" having learned it himself in Special Forces
training back in the 1960's. He taught me, primarily, center mass to center mass,
swiveling at the hips, "like a tank turret," when engageing multiple targets.

I've taught many people point shooting over the years, although differently than
I was taught. I always have them bring the gun up to eye level and the one common
mistake I see others make is taking too much time after they get the gun fully raised.
Basically they tend to go for the sights if they hesitate too long and it "screws them up."

Since I'm a revolver shooter I've added a twist picked up from Jerry Miculek's teachings.

Jerry says that revolver shooters "Live on a time table." What he means by this is that
the revolver's cylinder has to turn and if you wait until you are on target before pulling
the trigger, "you have to make a run at the trigger" making up for lost time.

After hearing Jerry explain this I incorporated his method into my point shooting,
which means that I'm pulling the trigger before getting the gun fully up to
eye level. I'm also doing the same when moving from one target to another.

I was lucky in that the timing seemed to come natural to me.

As a tribute to an old friend, who's no longer with us,
here's who got me into point shooting back in 1976.

Shown competeing in the 1977 World Practical Pistol Championships,
held in Salisbury, Rhodesia, that year, in his off time with the RLI. He
came in 25th, which would have been 3rd if not for one malfunction.

My friend had been in 28 countries of the world and killed someone
in darned near every one. He taught me a lot about staying alive.......

 

[Jellybean]

mc5aw, I understand what you are saying, I had a little trouble with it myself. But they are actually point shooting in it's purest terms, they are pointing the gun like they would point a finger and pull the trigger.

While holding it sideways sounds odd to anyone familiar with traditional shooting methods, it actually has a benefit. With a high capacity semi-auto they are using the natural recoil of the weapon to sweep from one side to the other and it does work, for what they want. I've heard fellow officers laugh when they read about "gangsta shootings" because they fire a full mag of ammo and of the three or four rounds that hit the guy only one is fatal. But dead is dead, no matter how it happens.

Ganstas' don't practice nearly as much as gun "hobbyists" or even police officers, but we can still learn a lot from their experiences.

 

[maddog909]

I've been practicing point shooting for the past two years. Mostly with a air soft gun that's a replica of my carry firearm. When I do practice with the real pistol my accuracy gets better each time. I think this type of practice definitely improves muscle memory and is more affordable.

 

[Chuck1217]

Re: gangsta style- I really haven't tried the full-palms-down method, but shooting weak-hand, I have found I can be more accurate with just the slight tilt. Left handed, I hold the pistol almost completely straight-armed, and tilted to the right to about 2:00. I shoot very well vertically, but horizontally speaking I always shoot abouot 2" right. I have toyed with the palms-down left-handed, but it just doesn't feel right.
I have read that a few experts even suggest the slight tilt- not the full gangsta plan.

 

[627 city hunter]

^^^Forearm/wrist/finger weakness from lack of firearm training result in cock-eyed bandana handling skills???

Sometimes I shot better left handed in regular position!