Possible 4th gen?

About IIRC 50-60% of homes in America have a firearm in them.......

In the highest Concealed Carry states only 7-9% of the population has permits.

Pennsylvania has about 800,000 deer hunters ....... ( down from over 1,000,000) out of a population of 12,000,000.... about 5-6%

NRA membership 4-5 million out of 312,000,000

How many belong to this Forum........160,000???????


IMHO those of us who have an interest in guns are a very small minority.....but...... there are a lot of folks who want to have a "personal protection weapon"...........

We've all been in our LGS when these folks walk in...........

With 30+ years of watching.... folks ask to see

1) What the local police are carrying....was a real mix of stuff until Glock showed up..........

2) What's most popular on TV and in the movies..........

70s-80s "Lethal Weapon" "Diehard"......Beretta's, Sigs Smiths

80-90s and beyond ..... Glocks......

Add in the fact that Glocks are generally "less expensive"..............

Lot's of Glocks and it's prodigies (Smith M&Ps etc.)that can compete on price ......... get sold .....

Sure Beretta and Sig are still selling "metal" guns.........but both are trying to find a gun that can compete with the Glock and the S&W M&Ps..... only so many ways to build a gun..... and Patents are hard to get around............

A 4th gen 3914 with polymer frame would be neat...... but I'd still like it to have 2nd or 3rd gen wood grips.............just old fashion I guess..:D
 
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hAkron said:
I believe that the 2nd and 3rd gen S&W guns were fairly expensive, and somewhat unpopular on the civilian market when they were being produced. It wasn't until after production started to wind down that the popularity grew...most likely because of so many inexpensive specimens being liquidated in the civilian market - trade ins and dusty unsold stock.
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Not having been paying much attention due to circumstances beyond my control during the 2nd and 3rd Generation years, I'll have to take your word for it. :o But it does make me think again about how I came to the realization in early-2014 that slightly used 3rd Gens were an outstanding bargain compared to any and all brand new modern plastic wonderguns. :)

It also makes me wonder how if life circumstances had been a little different and less challenging for me, would I have been a brand new full-price 3rd Gen collector? :confused:

It's impossible for me to ever know. ;) Best I can do now is try to make up for all that lost time. :p
 
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BAM-BAM said:
Add in the fact that Glocks are generally "less expensive"...
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Except in places where they are "prohibited for dealer sale" such as the loony PRM. :( Here, if you want a new one, they cost about double (if you can even find one). :rolleyes:

BAM-BAM said:
Lot's of Glocks and it's prodigies (Smith M&Ps etc.) that can compete on price... get sold.

Sure Beretta and Sig are still selling "metal" guns.........but both are trying to find a gun that can compete with the Glock and the S&W M&Ps...
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That be a fact. :o

I'm not so sure what Beretta is thinking these days. Around here, the 92 and variants are still its biggest sellers. But Sig seems determined to compete with the big boys in the cheap plastic wondergun marketplace... albeit while still tapping the all-metal gun market for what it's worth.

Could it be that Sig sees itself as one of the few sustainable survivors in the American non-1911 all-metal handgun marketplace? :confused: Or do they just want to be all things to all people regardless of pricing, profits, consumer demand or consumer wishes? :confused:

I've said it many times before: Sig confuses me! :p What is their focus? :confused: What do they want to be? :confused: Specialists or generalists? A boutique specialty shop or a mainstream commodity supplier? :confused: Or both??? :confused: After all these years, I still don't know. ;)
 
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TTSH said:
Except in places where they are "prohibited for dealer sale" such as the loony PRM. :( Here, if you want a new one, they cost about double (if you can even find one).


Don't understand....... can you explain???






I've said it many times before: Sig confuses me! :p What is their focus? :confused: What do they want to be? :confused: Specialists or generalists? A boutique specialty shop or a mainstream commodity supplier? :confused: Or both??? :confused: After all these years, I still don't know. ;)
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Sig lost me years ago ....weird guns,rainbow colors....... mine are all pre 95....... W. German 220, compact 245 and and my "safety net" 229 with half dozen mags and both .40 and .357sig barrels
 
BAM-BAM said:
Don't understand....... can you explain???
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Most Glocks are on our MA EOPS list (meaning okay for cops et al) but they do not meet the AG's ridiculous 1998 Consumer Protection Regs, so NO NEW GLOCKS FOR YOU (at least through dealers) if you live in the People's Republic. :(

There are various ways around the AG's Regs but they are not fit for printing here. :cool:

BAM-BAM said:
Sig lost me years ago ....weird guns, rainbow colors....... mine are all pre 95....... W. German 220, compact 245 and and my "safety net" 229 with half dozen mags and both .40 and .357sig barrels
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Funny thing is that I *WANT* to understand and like Sig (mainly because I consider them a "local" manufacturing firm) but they sure don't make it easy. :( Their plastic guns that I can afford all suck (sorry Sig fans!)... and their all-metal guns are too damn expensive for me to buy, even when "used & abused"! :eek: And then I don't understand the crappy finish they put on their all-metal guns. :confused: What is that stuff and why does it chip and scratch even before you've taken a new one out of the display case? :confused:

Too many horror stories too, mostly about corrosion. :(

I want to like them... honestly!!! But they just won't let me. :rolleyes:
 
growr I was going to mention those. The Turkish CZ clones that sell for less than $350 or even $300 in some cases. There are also some Turkish SIG clones that aren't bad. Of course the Taurus Beretta clones too.

I mention clones because yes, to make a S&W 3rd gen style gun in the US would be too expensive for the market. To the casual buyer it would be tough since the CZ and SIG derivatives are great guns. Would any of you buy a Turkish S&W 3rd gen clone?
 
Learned a lot from all the posts on this thread. Checked out their line but could not get prices on their all metal pistols. What is the goin rate for say a Model 220 or other Sig all metal models today? Are the finishes poor compared to ones 20 years back?
 
It's a funny thing but I always tell folks I have no problem with polymer stocks on rifles but dislike them on pistols. The first one I ever owned was a pocket 9mm - a Kel-Tec P9. A total *** but that's a different subject - I either misplaced it in my house or it was stolen - I don't know and don't care. My second polymer handgun was a SIG SP-2022 - and yes, if SIG can do it then S&W can surely do it. It's not my favorite pistol but it shoots well enough and I did score 246 out of 250 with that gun on my last CHL Instructor's test. So the traditional double action pistol dressed in polymer will work as long as someone is willing to make them.

I gotta check that Beretta out.............
 
Held onto that Guns & Ammo July issue with the Single Stack 9 MM shootout by the way. If anyone is considering a purchase of one of the 10 models reviewed I will be glad to post the results. They used 147 grain ammo in the tests.
 
mauser9 said:
Learned a lot from all the posts on this thread. Checked out their line but could not get prices on their all metal pistols. What is the goin rate for say a Model 220 or other Sig all metal models today? Are the finishes poor compared to ones 20 years back?
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I hope you don't just go by my half-***ed words of wisdom. :p All I own right now in Sig is a .22 Mosquito. :( Get the learned opinions of folks who are real Sig owners and Sig aficionados and Sig lovers before jumping to any conclusions. :D

I happen to find the flat black finishes attractive but not very durable. As one LGS salesman described them earlier today, they look and behave pretty much like flat black Krylon paint. :confused: But remember, I am a bright stainless steel finish 3rd Gen kind of guy, so I may be prejudiced. :p

I've only been shopping used Sigs and $600 to $650 is apparently considered a good price for a used P220 in decent shape. Same for a P226 pretty much. That's a little outside my typical $400-$500 3rd Gen target range and above the good wife's "No Wife Approval Required" threshold... so it would have to be one awfully nice gun for me to be able to consider it and hope to get her approval. :o

You really have to do your own research and decide for yourself. Sigs still confuse the heck out of me... but apparently not so much for others. :)
 
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Thanks for feedback TTSH. Had the feelin new metal Sigs may be approaching the $1000 figure. Seemed to be the rage with guys I worked with in late 80s or early 90s. Believe it was the 225 or 226 models in 9MM. Like you am primarily a Third Gen fan and like the Tactical Series as well as the CS line. Glad I got to take a tour of S&W back in 2000. Was impressed with all the pistols in a caged area that were ready for shipping. No could not take a tour of the caged area unfortunately. At the end of tour we all received a tie clip with plastic gun attached to it. That was the only plastic gun I recall seeing that day.
 
mauser9 said:
Thanks for feedback TTSH. Had the feelin new metal Sigs may be approaching the $1000 figure. Seemed to be the rage with guys I worked with in late 80s or early 90s. Believe it was the 225 or 226 models in 9MM. Like you am primarily a Third Gen fan and like the Tactical Series as well as the CS line. Glad I got to take a tour of S&W back in 2000. Was impressed with all the pistols in a caged area that were ready for shipping. No could not take a tour of the caged area unfortunately. At the end of tour we all received a tie clip with plastic gun attached to it. That was the only plastic gun I recall seeing that day.
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One of the funny things about Sigs is that you don't see sale prices printed very often, if at all. I think it has something to do with their dealer agreement. :confused: But you may be right. All I know is that I could never afford a brand new P220 or P226... although I'd stretch my budget and spousal relationship to the limit and beyond for a new or really nice used P227. :D

There are some funny stories I could relate to you about Sigs and Sig people... :p ... but I'll pass for now for the sake of politeness and brevity. :D Do your research and draw your own conclusions. :) That's what I recommend! :cool:
 
TTSH said:
Is Sig really competitive in the US market against the likes of S&W and Glock? :confused: I'm asking because I honestly don't know the answer. Personal observations and anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise, but actual hard figures are tough to come by.

Personally, I don't care that much about Sig. I've always said I'd like to buy a new P227 if/when they ever become MA-compliant. I've considered the P220 (mainly used ones) in the absence of a MA-compliant P227. I like the P226 now with the thinner grips, but there are other reasons I'll probably never own one.

I only ask because some folks say that Sig proves that S&W could go back to making all-metal handguns (other than 1911's) and do just fine on them in terms of sales and return on investment, etc. for the stockholders. I don't know if that's true or not, but I question whether Sig is the proof that S&W is making a mistake not pursuing the all-metal pistol market beyond its 1911's. :confused:
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Oh yes, Sig Sauer is making a killing in the US Market right now. With their traditional DA/SA guns in such demand that they've made new models and are bringing back old models.

The Sig P228 for example is back as the M11-A1.

Here is an original production P228.

1287725580.jpg


Sig ceased production after they designed the P229 (built around the .40 S&W). Well, demand has been soooooo high on the used market, especially with the German Police Surplus Guns that Sig saw it as a chance to cash in and make more money... hence the M11-A1. They even are marketing it under the US Military Designation of the P228.

S525-027076_8-29-12-540x540.jpg


Combat_Handguns_SigM11_A1_b_r1.jpg



Somehow Sig Sauer figured out how to cash in on that and now are bring back the P225 into production.

If Sig wasn't a major player in the market then the P227 wouldn't have been adopted by the Pennsylvania State Police and the Indiana State Police.
 
Miami_JBT said:
Oh yes, Sig Sauer is making a killing in the US Market right now.
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Okay, that's good to hear. :) Last year was a tough year for them with lots of layoffs. Sales of some Sigs are great around here this year while some are painfully slow. I'm sure it varies quite a bit by state/area. In MA, we don't have access to all of them, so that's a factor too. :o

Miami_JBT said:
If Sig wasn't a major player in the market then the P227 wouldn't have been adopted by the Pennsylvania State Police and the Indiana State Police.
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Shows that the Pennsylvania State Police and the Indiana State Police have good taste... and, apparently, the political clout to get their respective states to foot the bill. :) Good for them! :)
 
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The Sig 228 never came back. The M11 is a 229. The 229 was made originally to handle the 40/357sig rounds that the 228 couldn't. The slide was milled, extractor became external and the mag well widened. The 228 was dropped and the 229 was made in 2 flavors. A narrower one for 9mm and a wider and milled slide for the 40/357sig. Then to simplify things Sig just made the milled version of the 229 in 9mm as well, dropping the narrower one. The old 228 mags don't work well in the new 229 9mm and the new mags don't work at all in the old 228. The M11 and it's civilian version the m11-a1 are 229. The differences between the civilian 229 and the m11-a1 is that the M11-a1 has phosphate coated internals, Sig lite night sights and a UID label. That's it. It's still the same 229 from way back.

The use of 227 in the Pa state Police came from several "accidental" shootings by officers while cleaning their Glock 21. One officer "accidentally" shot his pregnant wife in the head. This went to court and he was found innocent. Whether it was truly an accident or murder only he knows. So to have a safer weapon they went to Sig and ironically, while at training to transition from Glock to the "safer" Sig one training officer shot and killed another officer.....accidentally!!! Shot him in the chest.

Prior to the G21 in 45acp the PSP used G37 in 45GAP. One of a very few departments to use that and the costs added up
 
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One of the "older" 228 is one of the few Sigs I would like to have.......

didn't know about the magazine issues..... good to know...(Arik.. thanks for the info.) making me rethink the 228 thing........

Weren't the German Police guns ...... all 225/P6s?

Had a 225 years ago...great gun and felt great in the hand...... but the 3913 was smaller and got the concealed carry slot........ and the single stack 9mm open carry slot was already filled by the Beretta 92 Compact Type M
 
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You can still get the old original mags and Mec-Gar makes them in 13 and 15 rounders. The old mags are thinner because the grip of the 228 was narrower. They do lock in the 229 and do feed but because there is wiggle room it's not ideal for using as a SD mag. Slight movement can cause feeding issues. The 229 mags are thicker and don't fit in the 228 mag well dispite being the same design. So that's not possible at all

I had a beautiful W. German 228 this past winter but the grip was just weird. I can't explain it. The 226 is fine but cut down to 228 feels odd. I sold it.

P6 were originally police yes. They also used 239 and to some extent the 220
 
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The new SIG mags.... a learning experience for me.

I'm at the lgs with my old 229 (.40); one of the store's other frequent shoppers comes to pick up his new M11 with the 229-1 15 rnd mags. I tried the mags in my 229, they fit. Cool I order 2 mags for my 228 based on the fact I could interchange my 228 & my cousins old 229 (9mm) mags....I found I was mistaken when they finally came in, and I took them home. but.... Oh well, so just had to go buy a like new 229-1 9mm slightly used on auction arms for $515, just so I didn't have to take the mags back. Talk about a lame excuse to buy a gun... but it was a great deal.
 
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