powder coated bullets pt2

[venomballistics]

Not wanting to mess up the previous thread. I figured I would start with a new one.
After reading all the claims across the web, I jumped full in on it.
my first batch could use some process improvement, but I got a solid 50 rounds of 30 06 loaded and tested.

I'm stunned.

I coated with bright yellow using a harbor freight pc gun, baked them at slightly too high of temperature which just started to melt the noses.

None the less, oddball noses at random or not, they grouped splendidly.

The reason for the bright yellow, it's a color you don't normally see in a bore. Thus, if they were fouling the bore with powder coat, I'd see it.

There was none to be found.
No streaks in the bore, no trace in the case necks, and nothing in the muzzle brake.
While the load was a stepped up version of a subsonic load I developed decades ago, if I recall correctly, this charge made about 1700 fps.
Pressure was moderately high so as to make the worst possible case for the powder coat.
Fair amount of speed, pressure and heat. A baptism by fire so to speak.

Cleaning the rifle was a pleasure.
Two wet patches followed by 10 slow passes with a brush, looking for the telltale rough spots indicative of leading.
Nope, there wasn't any.
3 dry patches on a jag and it was clean.

Suffice to say, I'll be laying the funky dust and cooking up all future batchesin the sleazy bake oven from now on.

If you read and had any doubts before, get over it. Powder coating cast bullets is easy and effective.
It's at least worth a bottle of airsoft bb's and powder coat from harbor freight.

 

[David R]

I bought some GREEN 255 rn from Bayou for my 45 colt. I loaded up a box. So far, no leading and I shot a one hole group at 7 yards. It was a little high and to the right. Trying it later today at 50 yards off the bench. Watch for pictures.

David

 

[mikld]

FWIW; any PC fouling you may get will prolly be black, regardless of the color applied. My green bullets left some (very slight) black residue/fouling, and I'm assuming it was from the heat from powder and friction. Not a "normal" PC occurrence though...

 

[H Richard]

I just read this and thought enough of it to order 500 each of 9mm and 45 for testing. I emailed them if they would ever have .32 caliber available and this morning Donnie Miculek emailed me that if they thought they had enough interest they would invest in the molds. So if any of you have an interest in these bullets for 32 S&W, .32 Long, 32 H&R Mag, or .327 Federal email Bayou and let them know.

 

[venomballistics]

FWIW; any PC fouling you may get will prolly be black, regardless of the color applied. My green bullets left some (very slight) black residue/fouling, and I'm assuming it was from the heat from powder and friction. Not a "normal" PC occurrence though...

Just as a general point to ponder for the rest of us, how tough was that to clean out of the bore?
in my random reading on the subject, I did come across one persons concern about removing pc fouling.
I just figured paint stripper might be a possible solution should a batch go horribly wrong.

 

[David R]

I shot some 30 cal 115 grain in my 30'06 yesterday. I was getting some kind of group until I went to 2,000 fps, then I fouled the barrel. Even with lower velocity, I could only put 5 shots on a 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 25 yards. Clean barrel start over.

I also shot some powder coated 255 grain in my model 25-7. Groups were good, but bigger than some 275 grain home cast I had. More info later. Tomorrow night is the silhouette match and I am shooting the 25-7 in that with the same 255 grain bullets ahead of 9 grains of unique.

 

[Moonman]

David R,

What was the ALLOY and hardness of the 30-06 projectiles?

 

[Maximumbob54]

One more time, Hi-tek coating as on the Bayou Bullets is NOT powder coating. It is some kind of polymer coating that is first broken down with acetone.

You will not have a coating failure with powder coating if it is done right. You will have a lead bullet failure with alloy hardness long before the coating fails. No lead bullet will take jacketed bullet velocity in rifle and they must all be at least somewhat reduced loads even with a cast linotype alloy bullet.

 

[venomballistics]

Right, same basic concepts, different animals.
Like bears and lions mauling rabbits.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I only say that because I find PC to be pretty easy to work with while Hi-Tek threads seem to indicate it takes some better efforts to get it to work. I've taken PC'ed bullets from the oven that weren't quite done and just baked them a little longer and I've had some red cook to brown and they all still shot just fine. Same with epoxy paint tumble coated bullets. That one just stinks.

 

[David R]

David R,

What was the ALLOY and hardness of the 30-06 projectiles?

I ASSume its the same as the 38s I bought. It was just a try it thing., I have more rifles to try them in. Looking for a max velocity.

Bullet measures .3085 so I don't know if its big enough in THAT gun. I have a 32-20 TC contender with a true .308 bore. I will be trying them in a while.

I also have a 308 I used for cast bullets.

So far my cast, sized and lubed bullets shot better. Give me some time.....

I have shot a 55 grain bullet cast of pure linotype with gas checks. 2650 fps, 5.5 inch group at 300 yards. The target is on the wall in my living room. Rifle was a heavy barrel Remington 700 in 22-250.

David

 

[mikld]

Just as a general point to ponder for the rest of us, how tough was that to clean out of the bore?
in my random reading on the subject, I did come across one persons concern about removing pc fouling.
I just figured paint stripper might be a possible solution should a batch go horribly wrong.

Swabbed bbl with my home made Ed's Red, sit for a few minutes, and ran two tight patches through the bbl. All fouling came out...

 

[Maximumbob54]

Almost screwed up and didn't have a control group. These only have the first coating so it's too thin. These have traditional lube on them.



These are two coats with no lube. Everything will have a gas check as I've not had any serious accuracy without them on molds made for them.



I have more that are coated twice and will hold some back to see if a third coating is needed at all. These are 8mm Mauser to be shot in a stock Yugo 24/47. 16gr of 2400 in each is the starter load and it's the magic number that usually offers accuracy. It usually seems like you can push them harder but not with any accuracy increase. The bullets are 8mm Maximum 240gr from a Lee mold ordered from Midsouth. The older Max molds seemed to be milled a little different than these newer ones but I work with what I have and not what I wish I had. I will post more when I get the time to go shoot them from a rest to be sure I eliminate as much of the me from the accuracy potential possible with these. Ah, I'm forgetting, the alloy is Lyman #2 water dropped but the PC melt temp should offset any water quenching. Another test should be to cure the PC and then bring them up to temp again and water drop them.

So many things to do and with moving to a new house soon there is so little time.

 

[Forrest r]

I do a couple of things with the 30cals that I pc.

The ones cast from softer alloy (range scrap), I only put a single coat of pc on them & water drop them right when the come out of the 400* oven to harden them. I only run these to 1700fpc just like thier traditional lubed/gc'd counterparts. That's all the alloy can take/stand before I start getting allot of fliers.

A 10shot group (with 1 flier) shot @ 50yds with one of my favorite plinking bullets (old cramer #50) with a 10g load of ww super handicap that chronographed @ 1700fps.



I'm just know starting on faster/heavier loads & have switched alloys to a hard alloy with 25% linotype added. These bullets are double coated with pc & water dropped after the 2nd coat.

So far my pistol bullets that I've pc'd are single coated & are in the 1300fps range and less. Most of my lead/cast bullets are hp's & the hp's tend to fail @ anything over 1300fps. For heavy mag loads I use my jacketed swaged bullets.

The only "black ring" I've seen has been in a 629 that I shot allot (200+) of pc'd bullets/heavy loads (250g cast bullet & 10.2g of universal clays). It reminded me of carbon buildup & came out easily with hoppe's #9 & a brush. The bbl cleaned up with a couple of patches.

 

[mikld]

Hey Bob, those bullets don't look too good. How are you coating them? The lube grooves seem bare and the coating looks rough, not sommthe and baked on...

 

[venomballistics]

Well, I think I can say that I have been to the circus and seen the elephant now.
At least one of them.

First, the electrostatic spray gun is a sweet way to go.
I've experimented through the entire run of lead I cast yesterday.
You can do multiple coats for twice baked bullets. Though I think it unnecessary as the gun can give you as thick of a coat as you'll need in one cycle.
Parchment paper is your friend. And guess what .... The es gun is effective through the parchment. I guess 10kV worth of charge starts to talk some dielectrics out of being non conductive.
A thick coat seems to make for a hit and miss proposition.
I suppose this is one plus side of shake and bake methods. S&b don't care about conductivity.

Second, I tried loading the first round as I would a jacketed bullet in the 30-06.
no dice. It shaved the sides. So much for being able to eliminate the mouth flare step. Was worth a shot, and hardly the end of the World.

Third, this is quick. Traditional lube and size operations usually takes about as long as casting the raw bullets.
PC methods and I did all of yesterday's heavy metal supplements in about 4 hours, screwing around as much as coating. Such is the nature of hammering out a process.

Fourth, loading is a non stop deal.
I always had a love hate relationship with wadcutters
I love shooting them, but hated loading them.
They leave so little space for expelled lube that I'd load 30 and pull the seating punch for cleaning.
Now I just might be motivated to knock the dust off that old mold now that there is hope for proper loading runs with it.

Incidentally, the harbor freight pc gun is still on sale for 65 bucks.
It seems to prefer being run at the low end of its air pressure range. About 12 to 15 psi has been the order of the day.
A bicycle tire pump might be able to keep up with it

 

[Maximumbob54]

Hey Bob, those bullets don't look too good. How are you coating them? The lube grooves seem bare and the coating looks rough, not sommthe and baked on...

They were tumble coated. Only the contact surface needs a coating. The coating is a matte finish and the sizing smooths it out some. These won't be long range gnat's booty bullets. These (I hope) will be hundred yards and in bullets. Yes, I could ES spray them and they would look all pretty but pretty has never shot any better for me.

 

[Maximumbob54]

VB, don't give up. Yes, you still need to open the case mouth a little. I like to buy the Lyman M dies but a simple cheap Lee universal case mouth expander die also works. I just prefer the M die because it also holds the bullet straight up and down so there is no risk of the bullet falling to the side during seating. Also as far as time goes keep in mind that spray or tumble either way you can be processing more while the others bake. It will never be as fast as a Star lube and sizer with all the options running but it will cost you a heck of a lot less...

And good thought on the WC bullets. I have a mold that I need to break back out and see if they will set up on nails with the HB.

 

[venomballistics]

well these things aint no fun without pictures
so I guess Ill carve out some time and weigh this thread down a little

Ill start with a few of the first run 30 cal heavy metal supplements.
yeah they have some of that nasty post bake flash from the drilled plate method. there might not be an elegant way to do this particular bullet, but Ill call it good enough for some testing.

Look ma .. a result
the test string was fired to observe fowling.
typically, this rifle opens up with leading.
these were the last rounds of the string.

these two are what I had at the end of the session.
I was looking for any yellow powder coat, either as skid marks or flakes caught in the brake.
none to be found

I'll add some more pics of progress since square one a bit later. For now I have too much blood in my coffee system

 

[venomballistics]

VB, don't give up. Yes, you still need to open the case mouth a little. I like to buy the Lyman M dies but a simple cheap Lee universal case mouth expander die also works. I just prefer the M die because it also holds the bullet straight up and down so there is no risk of the bullet falling to the side during seating. Also as far as time goes keep in mind that spray or tumble either way you can be processing more while the others bake. It will never be as fast as a Star lube and sizer with all the options running but it will cost you a heck of a lot less...

And good thought on the WC bullets. I have a mold that I need to break back out and see if they will set up on nails with the HB.

Oh, I have something better. I have a lathe
Any expander I want within an hour. thats why it was hardly the end of the world.
I made that die years ago, and need only to occasionally turn out a punch to address a different bore size.

Im kinda thinking about ways of minimizing the flash issue with WC's in general. The process seems to favor HP's that can be baked off on a spike.
the WC promises to be fun in the days to come.
Today is meant for loading and possibly more shootin'

 

[Maximumbob54]

You have your own lathe. That's almost like cheating.

Here's another thought on WC's. Just set them nose down and load them with what little crimp you use if any so they are just a hair out still. I bet they shoot just fine.

I need to try this. Y'er killing me.

Edit: I forgot to ask, was this just using jacketed .30-06 data for the yeller bullet bullseye shooters???

 

[venomballistics]

You have your own lathe. That's almost like cheating.

Here's another thought on WC's. Just set them nose down and load them with what little crimp you use if any so they are just a hair out still. I bet they shoot just fine.

I need to try this. Y'er killing me.

yeah, I'd clearly call it "optional" reloading equipment
but if your like me, where your driven to experiment, Machines start to make some sense.
The tool to keep an eye on is the laser sintering 3d printer.
You might afford a Porsche before you afford an LSP but the prospect of printing 3D steel off of a CAD draft is delicious.

Im between calibers at the loading bench for now, with PCed 45 ACP the only thing left to stuff and store.
that'll be followed by more pictures and then some time at the alter of manhood (lathe), where I will set up for a trek a little farther off the "by the numbers" reloading reservation and punch out a few molds with coating in mind

 

[Maximumbob54]

I've seen the 3D printed 1911 they made a year or two ago. I'm just waiting for the registered magnum setting. Then I will sell a lung, kindey, or whatever it takes.

Since you have your own lathe, is that to say you could be boring your own mold blocks??? If so, I've tried a couple of no lube groove molds and I have to say they are great. The first decent looking .30 cal no lube groove mold I see I may have to jump on it. So far I've tried a 135gr 9mm and 230gr .45 ACP and wow the accuracy with coating...

 

[venomballistics]

You have your own lathe. That's almost like cheating.

Here's another thought on WC's. Just set them nose down and load them with what little crimp you use if any so they are just a hair out still. I bet they shoot just fine.

I need to try this. Y'er killing me.

Edit: I forgot to ask, was this just using jacketed .30-06 data for the yeller bullet bullseye shooters???

no ... that load is way off the reservation from when I was playing heavy with a suppressor.
It is a stepped up variant of a series of loads that tamed the blast down to a discrete ping.
I played with it so extensively I know it inside and out, and was quite confident in using it as a starting point.

10.8 grains of blue dot, winchester standard large rifle priming, mixed brass, mostly remington this time, and the Lee 150G flat point I picked up at a gunshow on a lark back in the 90's for all of $6

The base subsonic parent load was somewhere between 7.8 and 8.4 grains, using the Lee 150FP, 180 RN and 200 RN with a Fed 215 magnum primer.
I say "somewhere" because it changes a little from lot to lot and needed to be retuned for each lot of powder.
it gave an ES in the single digits and 1" accuracy@ 100 Yards

 

[venomballistics]

I've seen the 3D printed 1911 they made a year or two ago. I'm just waiting for the registered magnum setting. Then I will sell a lung, kindey, or whatever it takes.

Since you have your own lathe, is that to say you could be boring your own mold blocks??? If so, I've tried a couple of no lube groove molds and I have to say they are great. The first decent looking .30 cal no lube groove mold I see I may have to jump on it. So far I've tried a 135gr 9mm and 230gr .45 ACP and wow the accuracy with coating...

I have bored a few blocks in the past.
Setup is a real time vampire at all stages.
This will be a total rethink of what we call a mold.
and if it works, Ill use it, if it works really well ... Ill produce it

 

[venomballistics]

Im about running out of energy today

heres a random sampling of todays accomplishments

we have some 30-06 in obligatory black using 3031
45 ACP at the ready as the red ball express over power pistol
and in fire and lava tones is the round of our forefathers 45-70 burning RL7
round two at the range should really push the coatings worth.
I do hope most of them show promise at the range, as these should all be fine standard loads for all reasons and most seasons.

heres what I mean about parchment paper being your friend.
it seems to keep your contact plates clean without interfering with the electrostatic charge in any meaningful way. it also releases the baked pills with ease.
there is a catch though, if your overspray is heavy enough, your slugs will release from the parchment in a solid sheet of flash. It seemed to get knocked off in sizing however.

heres a $25 investment that kinda started to grow on me.
I have come to call it the sleazy bake oven. Anyone arriving late, .... or early and overlooked this detail. Powder coat needs to be baked at around 400 degrees for around 15 - 20 minutes. It also renders the oven useless for edible pursuits.
This little number has temperature controls AND a built in timer that shuts it off after the bake is done.
at around $25 ... get two or three and run em in rotations

 

[David R]

I have done some more testing with the 115 grain 30 cal bullet. I was a cast bullet shooter for years.

I tried them in my 1917 enfield (30-06) and had no luck.

I tried them in my Savage 308 today and they shot well. Some hope. It could be fun. More later.

David

Edit

[/IMG]

8 grains Unique, Large Pistol primer, 115 gr Bayou bullets seated pretty deep with a light crimp.

25 yards prone laying in the grass, no sling or anything. Stevens like a savage 110 with a wood stock. I will up the charge till the group goes south.


My girlfriend was shooting jugs of water in the back yard with it today. What a blast.

 

[venomballistics]

Been in the venom labs again, and I present to you a sweet finding in powder application. 

Preheat the bullets prior to giving them the magic dust. 
While not entirely necessary for the electrostatic methods I employ, this should be adaptable to tumble methods. 

I populated the rack and baked them in the sleazy bake for 10 minutes at 350 degrees.
immediately after removal I transfered them to the coating station and sprayed with harbor freight yellow. 
The powder was melting to the surface on contact which provided a head start on building of the coating.
The resulting single coat is rather thick, perhaps even overkill for my needs and methods. 

Perhaps use of airgun bb's in a rotating metal container could be a viable option.

 

[David R]

Last night I shot some out of the 308. I upped the charge to 12 grains Unique like Lyman recommended for the potentially accurate load. I shot a few 5 shot groups at 25 yards off a decent rest and got 5/8 to 1 1/8" groups. These should be going around 1800 fps acording to the book. Its probably close. No gas check! Tonight my girlfriend is going to shoot that 308 in a hunter silhouette match. I am shooting it too. I have 100 rounds loaded up on the Dillion.

The no lead part is great for me. It saves time and the cost is miminal.

I also ordered some 158 grain RNFP 30 caliber from another compay to try in the 1917 enfield.

David I'm having a ball R.

 

[Moonman]

Coatings are the wave of the future, whether HI-TEK, ELECTROSTATIC POWDER COATING,
TUMBLE Powder Coating with electrostatic powders or THE BLUE BULLET deal.

Progress is on the march with all the testing currently in process.
The USA market is really stimulating the Australian HI-TEK process with NEW DRY POWERS/CATALYSTS/COLORS.

Many USA RIFLE SHOOTERS are enjoying ENHANCED results with accuracy and Cleaner Rifles.

GOOD work by all the folks experimenting with these processes, it can
only HELP THE SHOOTING SPORTS.

It doesn't matter if you purchase finished projectiles or
DO-IT-YOURSELF. it's all good.