Pre 10 (I thought!) Postwar.38 M&P New Edition
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diamonback68
US Veteran
They still seem to be $350-$400 guns in this neck of the woods. They made a gazillion M&P and they all seem to bring about the same no matter how old. Cherry ones like that might bring just a little more.
I might go $450 for that one. It's an SV- or S-prefix serial number, I presume. It would probably date from late 1945-early 1948. (Sharp shoulder postwar magnas, single-line address.)
Actually, I'd go higher if it proved to be a birthday gun for me -- late July of 1945. But for the non-symbolic market, I think $450 is about right at the high end, with anything lower better from the buyer's standpoint.
Just to split hairs, that's not a Pre-10. The gun that became the Model 10 was not introduced until April of 1948. It had the short-throw hammer; this gun still has the long action. Collectors would identify it as a postwar .38 M&P.
Actually, I'd go higher if it proved to be a birthday gun for me -- late July of 1945. But for the non-symbolic market, I think $450 is about right at the high end, with anything lower better from the buyer's standpoint.
Just to split hairs, that's not a Pre-10. The gun that became the Model 10 was not introduced until April of 1948. It had the short-throw hammer; this gun still has the long action. Collectors would identify it as a postwar .38 M&P.
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I agree in general with Dick's estimate, provided the condition is excellent and everything is original (as seems to be the case).
I suspect that is a late 40's vintage piece with an "S" prefix serial number, which for some is a bit more desirable than other postwar production. It could even be an "SV" prefixed commercial Victory, and in that event, a substantial premium would not be out of order.
Edit: I see David has beaten me to this by a few minutes....
I suspect that is a late 40's vintage piece with an "S" prefix serial number, which for some is a bit more desirable than other postwar production. It could even be an "SV" prefixed commercial Victory, and in that event, a substantial premium would not be out of order.
Edit: I see David has beaten me to this by a few minutes....
I had a related question, I saw a gun of the same type and vintage and it had rounded butt grips are these found on m&p ?
Thank you for this info, when I looked it up in the 3rd ed Cat it was listed under pre 10. Did I read it wrong?
First, that's an excellent score at that price. Congratulations!
Second, I hone my knives really sharp so that I can split hairs really thin. Many collectors use the "pre" designation with some models to mean anything made after WWII, and a few people even refer the prewar M&Ps as "Pre-10s." I like the "Pre" designation as a shorthand way to identify members of a specific design class produced before the Model numbers got hung on the product line, but I try to hew closely to the design of the model-marked guns. As you count backwards, the "Pre" designation hits a brick wall (or should) with the first model you encounter that has a significant difference from the model-marked gun. Or so say I.
In the grand scheme of things, what the heck difference does it make. I still knew what you meant.
diamonback68
US Veteran
First, that's an excellent score at that price. Congratulations!
Second, I hone my knives really sharp so that I can split hairs really thin. Many collectors use the "pre" designation with some models to mean anything made after WWII, and a few people even refer the prewar M&Ps as "Pre-10s." I like the "Pre" designation as a shorthand way to identify members of a specific design class produced before the Model numbers got hung on the product line, but I try to hew closely to the design of the model-marked guns. As you count backwards, the "Pre" designation hits a brick wall (or should) with the first model you encounter that has a significant difference from the model-marked gun. Or so say I.
In the grand scheme of things, what the heck difference does it make. I still knew what you meant.
Bravo, way to go David.
But, you do have a point. P.S. Shape knives come in handy for just such occasions.
But that's why this is a great place to learn. I only ask cause I want to call my new gun by the right name!D R Greysun
Member
Refresher!
I guess I need a little refresher here, I didn't hear 'Transitional' mentioned.
I have to guess because it is not, even though I thought it maybe. So, if you will please run it by me one more time. Transitional refers to what exactly & how is this 'S' Series post war M&P differ? Thanx already!
D R
I guess I need a little refresher here, I didn't hear 'Transitional' mentioned.
I have to guess because it is not, even though I thought it maybe. So, if you will please run it by me one more time. Transitional refers to what exactly & how is this 'S' Series post war M&P differ? Thanx already!
D R
The postwar M&P revolvers all have the improved safety block (indicated by the S prefix) and most of them have the knobless ejector rod. I don't think I usually hear the postwar M&Ps characterized as "transitional," though of course they are -- long action guns with some postwar design features.
Seems to me the hammer stud and trigger spring stud are polished flat to the frame on the postwar guns. That's a fniishing change rather than an engineering change, but it is a treatment that continues with the short-action guns introduced in 1948.
"Transitional" does not mean the same thing in one frame size as it does in another. The N-frame transitional guns still have exposed hammer studs, for example
You received very knowledgeable insights above and I agree you made an excellent buy. I believe this is the highest post-war serial number I've seen with the pre-war barrel-shaped ejector rod tip.
Russ
CORRECTION: the barrel-shaped ejector rod was used as late as 1948 . . . don't know what I was thinking.
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Russ, in one of my posts above I should have said "many of them have the knobless ejector rod" rather than "most of them..." I don't actually know what the actual counts were for the two postwar knob styles.
But I have seen knobless ejector rods on 1947 M&Ps, including one from May of that year with a serial number under S900000. I suspect the with/without distinction may be a half-and-half thing among the long-action K-frames. Yes, some K-frames were still getting large knob ejector rods in early 1948 -- the earliest K-38 Masterpieces, for example. But the knobless ejector had already appeared in M&P production nearly a year earlier; there are pictures of them in threads on this forum. And the two inch M&Ps, of which many were produced in the postwar years, never had knobbed rods in the first place.
The "transitional" guns were transitional even inside this one defining feature.
But I have seen knobless ejector rods on 1947 M&Ps, including one from May of that year with a serial number under S900000. I suspect the with/without distinction may be a half-and-half thing among the long-action K-frames. Yes, some K-frames were still getting large knob ejector rods in early 1948 -- the earliest K-38 Masterpieces, for example. But the knobless ejector had already appeared in M&P production nearly a year earlier; there are pictures of them in threads on this forum. And the two inch M&Ps, of which many were produced in the postwar years, never had knobbed rods in the first place.
The "transitional" guns were transitional even inside this one defining feature.
roaddog28
Member
Good information DC.Russ, in one of my posts above I should have said "many of them have the knobless ejector rod" rather than "most of them..." I don't actually know what the actual counts were for the two postwar knob styles.
But I have seen knobless ejector rods on 1947 M&Ps, including one from May of that year with a serial number under S900000. I suspect the with/without distinction may be a half-and-half thing among the long-action K-frames. Yes, some K-frames were still getting large knob ejector rods in early 1948 -- the earliest K-38 Masterpieces, for example. But the knobless ejector had already appeared in M&P production nearly a year earlier; there are pictures of them in threads on this forum. And the two inch M&Ps, of which many were produced in the postwar years, never had knobbed rods in the first place.
The "transitional" guns were transitional even inside this one defining feature.
finaltoy
Member
Smith & Wesson M&P pre Model 10
I have a S&W .38 Spl. (pictured) that I had the manufacturer research for me. cost was
$50.00 but well worth it.
Turns out it is a .38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police Model of 1905, Third Change. Company records indicate (serial # 153800) was shipped from the factory on May 10,1910 and delivered to Hibbard spencer Bartlett & Company, Chicago. Shipped with a 4 inch barrel, nickel finish and checkered walnut grips. Shown are aftermarket grips. Also it is a square butt frame. I don't have idea on value but I paid $200.00 about a year ago.
I have a S&W .38 Spl. (pictured) that I had the manufacturer research for me. cost was
$50.00 but well worth it.
Turns out it is a .38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police Model of 1905, Third Change. Company records indicate (serial # 153800) was shipped from the factory on May 10,1910 and delivered to Hibbard spencer Bartlett & Company, Chicago. Shipped with a 4 inch barrel, nickel finish and checkered walnut grips. Shown are aftermarket grips. Also it is a square butt frame. I don't have idea on value but I paid $200.00 about a year ago.
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$200 was a good price. You have a fine century-old shooter -- classic and utilitarian at the same time. Congratulations. (But don't shoot +P ammo in it. I usually shoot lower speed match wadcutter ammo in my older .38s.)
The 1905/third change guns are not found as often as the fourth change variety because far fewer were made. They aren't exactly rare, but it's cool you found one.
Those grips are franzite stocks, probably from the 1950s. The original stocks would have been the smaller service style that don't rise over the frame or sideplate. Can't recall if they would have had medaliions in them in 1910.
finaltoy
Member
Thanx for info DC.
You know, maybe this was a Chicago gangsters gun!!!!!!
The timeframe sure looks possible! If only it could talk.
It is in excellent shape and no, I don't shoot +P.
Bill
You know, maybe this was a Chicago gangsters gun!!!!!!
The timeframe sure looks possible! If only it could talk.
It is in excellent shape and no, I don't shoot +P.
Bill
I actually think the hammer stud change should be considered a minor engineering change. The reason the later studs are polished flat to the frame is that they are pressed in place, whereas the earlier studs were screwed into a threaded hole in the left side of the frame. That management order was issued on January 18, 1946, and seems to have been implemented rather quickly. By at least April of 1946, it appears that all new K frame .38 M&P revolvers were shipping with the pressed hammer pivot stud.
The order to eliminate the extractor rod knob and replace it with a knurled end on the extractor rod was issued on October 4, 1946. This applied, of course, only to revolvers fitted with a barrel of longer than 2", since this type of rod was always used on the short barreled revolvers. Unlike the change to the hammer stud, this change did not seem to show up very quickly. The data I have so far collected show many guns with 4", 5" and 6" barrels with the knob for quite a while before the knurled end starts appearing. The lowest serial number I've encountered so far is on a 5" gun and it is S875065 and I believe it shipped in January, 1947. I show several with higher serial numbers that still have the knob. It doesn't finally disappear for good until the S882xxx range (about April of 1947). And I have actually located one in the S903xxx range that has the knob. That one seems to be a flier.
Many people on this Forum have contributed to my collection of data on these S prefix guns, and I greatly appreciate their cooperation. I'll once again issue a call. If you have one or more S prefix M&P revolvers in your collection that you have not reported to me, please consider contacting me about them. I have a short questionnaire I can send you so I can add your data to the spreadsheet.
Thanks!
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