deadin
US Veteran
I haven't been keeping on the machinations with the Postal Service.
Are antique S&W's mailable by a FFL03?
Thanks,
Are antique S&W's mailable by a FFL03?
Thanks,
Pre 1899 S&W revolvers vs USPS?
- Thread starter deadin
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
All antiques can be shipped, if one complies to all the regulations for C&R FFLs. As I can understand, the problem is that the Post Office does not allow any fixed ammunition handgun shipped without an FFL who has registered with USPS.
The following is the statement from USPS regulations:
a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
The definition of an antiques by the USPS, 431.3, is tough to understand, but is below:
431.3 Antique Firearm
Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:
a. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
b. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
§ 478.93 Authorized operations by a licensed collector.
BATF Regulation Subpart B § 478.11
1. Antique firearm.
1. a. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
2. b. Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica:
1. 1.Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or
2. 2.Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
3. c. Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol that is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and that cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this paragraph (3), the term "antique firearm" does not include any weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
2. Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
1. a. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2. b. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3. c. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
The following is the statement from USPS regulations:
a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
The definition of an antiques by the USPS, 431.3, is tough to understand, but is below:
431.3 Antique Firearm
Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:
a. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
b. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
§ 478.93 Authorized operations by a licensed collector.
BATF Regulation Subpart B § 478.11
1. Antique firearm.
1. a. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
2. b. Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica:
1. 1.Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or
2. 2.Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
3. c. Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol that is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and that cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this paragraph (3), the term "antique firearm" does not include any weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
2. Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
1. a. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2. b. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3. c. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
Last edited:
OP
deadin
US Veteran
Thanks Gary,
I don't know just how many times I've read those definitions and every time I come up with a different take on the regs. It reads to me that all of the caveats concern replicas and originals should be exempt regardless of chambering. But then again ????????
Example: 32 S&W 2nd Model DA top break, made 1880ish.
Mailable, yes or no?
I don't know just how many times I've read those definitions and every time I come up with a different take on the regs. It reads to me that all of the caveats concern replicas and originals should be exempt regardless of chambering. But then again ????????
Example: 32 S&W 2nd Model DA top break, made 1880ish.
Mailable, yes or no?
Last edited:
Well I learned something new!
I've been sitting here, all fat, dumb and happy, thinking an Antique firearm wasn't "a firearm"; and could be shipped/mailed any where at any time by anybody----never mind anything else!
It's a sad state of affairs when OUR money is being spent to hire folks to sit around all day, and come up with even more cockamamie rules and regulations to complicate our lives!!!!
Ralph Tremaine
I've been sitting here, all fat, dumb and happy, thinking an Antique firearm wasn't "a firearm"; and could be shipped/mailed any where at any time by anybody----never mind anything else!
It's a sad state of affairs when OUR money is being spent to hire folks to sit around all day, and come up with even more cockamamie rules and regulations to complicate our lives!!!!
Ralph Tremaine
OP
deadin
US Veteran
Here 's the zinger
Publication 52 - Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail > 4 Restricted Matter > 43 Firearms
Link to "423 Packaging and Marking" Link to contents for "4 Restricted Matter" Link to Index Link to "432 Mailability"
43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
The following definitions apply:
Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
According to this an original flintlock pocket pistol is unmailable!
See the exception underlined above....)
AFAIK this is something more recent that has been added to the rules.......
Publication 52 - Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail > 4 Restricted Matter > 43 Firearms
Link to "423 Packaging and Marking" Link to contents for "4 Restricted Matter" Link to Index Link to "432 Mailability"
43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
The following definitions apply:
Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
According to this an original flintlock pocket pistol is unmailable!
See the exception underlined above....)
AFAIK this is something more recent that has been added to the rules.......
Federal Government
I stopped using US Postal with any antique firearms related items years ago after having several alarming incidents.
Including "Reporting" to the Richmond office to meet the postal inspector to explain why a gun barrel is sticking out of a box shipped to my address. It wasn't fun. Even after explaining to the postal inspector that it was a 165 year old cap and ball Civil War antique!
I've also had clerks freak out when I was asked what I'm shipping and I told them antique gun parts. Just a target barrel and a couple screws!!
So, after that ridiculous incident where everyone in the office and those in line looked at me like I was a criminal I decided to use a private company. UPS and Fed Ex.
No more problems!
Most of the major auction houses also use private shipping companies likely for the same reasons.
Dealing with the Federal Government and Federal Laws is risky even if you are 100% within the law. Reporting to the postal inspector and sitting in a government office with multiple suits asking questions of unlawful mailing activity is not worth the experience!
Murph
I stopped using US Postal with any antique firearms related items years ago after having several alarming incidents.
Including "Reporting" to the Richmond office to meet the postal inspector to explain why a gun barrel is sticking out of a box shipped to my address. It wasn't fun. Even after explaining to the postal inspector that it was a 165 year old cap and ball Civil War antique!
I've also had clerks freak out when I was asked what I'm shipping and I told them antique gun parts. Just a target barrel and a couple screws!!
So, after that ridiculous incident where everyone in the office and those in line looked at me like I was a criminal I decided to use a private company. UPS and Fed Ex.
No more problems!
Most of the major auction houses also use private shipping companies likely for the same reasons.
Dealing with the Federal Government and Federal Laws is risky even if you are 100% within the law. Reporting to the postal inspector and sitting in a government office with multiple suits asking questions of unlawful mailing activity is not worth the experience!
Murph
OP
deadin
US Veteran
Murph,
I tend to agree with you, but the requirement to use overnight or next day air for handguns just sticks in my craw.
I wonder if I could get away with combining 3 or 4 guns in the same package going to the same address?
What brought this on is I am thinking of thinning out some of my "place-holders" as a group sale. (Guns that are filling holes in my collection while waiting for better examples) Some are antiques, some are C&R's. Some are S&W's, some are not.
I tend to agree with you, but the requirement to use overnight or next day air for handguns just sticks in my craw.
I wonder if I could get away with combining 3 or 4 guns in the same package going to the same address?
What brought this on is I am thinking of thinning out some of my "place-holders" as a group sale. (Guns that are filling holes in my collection while waiting for better examples) Some are antiques, some are C&R's. Some are S&W's, some are not.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2022
- Messages
- 869
- Reaction score
- 1,410
Hi There,
"Most of the major auction houses also use private shipping companies likely for the same reasons."
But not all of them.
"I wonder if I could get away with combining 3 or 4 guns in the same package going to the same address?"
A couple week ago I received a couple S&W#1's that way via USPS.
I'm still waiting for four S&W#1-1/2's to show up.
Cheers!
Webb
"Most of the major auction houses also use private shipping companies likely for the same reasons."
But not all of them.
"I wonder if I could get away with combining 3 or 4 guns in the same package going to the same address?"
A couple week ago I received a couple S&W#1's that way via USPS.
I'm still waiting for four S&W#1-1/2's to show up.
Cheers!
Webb
mmaher94087
Member
I agree with the above. I received an antique shipped through USPS from a major auction house recently. I think they would be up on the shipping requirements as that is a major part and very important part of their business.
ol777gunnerz
Member
info
Ship UPS from an FFL, save yourself a lot of problems. Even better, if you are licensed to ship it yourself, sign up on Pirate Ship & save a lot on each shipment, it is way easier to use than USPS & UPS sites, & gives you choices on shipper & costs.
Ship UPS from an FFL, save yourself a lot of problems. Even better, if you are licensed to ship it yourself, sign up on Pirate Ship & save a lot on each shipment, it is way easier to use than USPS & UPS sites, & gives you choices on shipper & costs.
OP
deadin
US Veteran
My problem is that the nearest FFL01(dealer) that will ship is 40 miles away. I am a FFL03, but that doesn't cut it with the USPS.
My gut says the overnight/next day air requirements came to be in response to the need to avoid/mitigate theft claims----of which I'm believing were more than a few.
These requirements very definitely limit the time in which items are in these shippers "care, custody, and control"--and less time translates to less exposure. I don't know the actual loss experience of any of these folks, but I know they take their responsibilities seriously---including the post office. I once had the need to ship a very special NM #3 Target barrel, including latch/sight. Our local P.O. folks were quick to tell me to use Registered Mail---noting it was subject to the tightest controls----including being checked in and out of every step/stop along the way---and if it didn't show up at the next scheduled stop along the way, it was all hands on deck time until control was regained. So that's what I did---out and back---and all was well---thank God for small favors!!
Ralph Tremaine
These requirements very definitely limit the time in which items are in these shippers "care, custody, and control"--and less time translates to less exposure. I don't know the actual loss experience of any of these folks, but I know they take their responsibilities seriously---including the post office. I once had the need to ship a very special NM #3 Target barrel, including latch/sight. Our local P.O. folks were quick to tell me to use Registered Mail---noting it was subject to the tightest controls----including being checked in and out of every step/stop along the way---and if it didn't show up at the next scheduled stop along the way, it was all hands on deck time until control was regained. So that's what I did---out and back---and all was well---thank God for small favors!!
Ralph Tremaine
I believe the opposite effect may be the case moving forward. If I were a thief working at the USPS, I would simply steal overnight express package and maybe come up with mostly guns? If they cannot investigate Priority Mail and catch the crooks there in a 3 day delivery timeframe, why would we think that overnight package thieves will be caught handling a 2 day package???
Last edited:
Exmilcop
Member
I purchased an antique S&W 1st. mod DA off one of the members here (and a big THANK YOU to him) and he mailed it to me up here in Canada. I don't know if the fact that it went out of country had an effect on the USPS, but it made it up here no problem. On the customs form he wrote "antique S&W" as I'd requested and there were no glitches in mailing system either with USPS or Canada Post. All the trouble I had getting the pistol was with Canada Customs, and that's a story and a half!!
Depends
Even though the US Post Office is Federally governed by Federal Laws it depends upon where the office is located.
A good example would be a post office in Texas as compared to a post office in California or New Jersey or Baltimore.
Often State laws or the lack of understanding State laws can cause significant problems for the person mailing or receiving the antique arm.
Making general statements really doesn't cover all the possibilities. You might never have any issues in Florida or Texas but in California or New Jersey they'd put you away for 10 years or cause you such financial distress proving your innocence with lawyer fees and stress that it's just not worth the risk.
Being within the law often has to be proven in court even when it's obvious. Oh boy, I won the case? But it cost me $40,000 in attorney fees and I lost five years off my life from the stress.
All for a $800 antique?
Murph
Even though the US Post Office is Federally governed by Federal Laws it depends upon where the office is located.
A good example would be a post office in Texas as compared to a post office in California or New Jersey or Baltimore.
Often State laws or the lack of understanding State laws can cause significant problems for the person mailing or receiving the antique arm.
Making general statements really doesn't cover all the possibilities. You might never have any issues in Florida or Texas but in California or New Jersey they'd put you away for 10 years or cause you such financial distress proving your innocence with lawyer fees and stress that it's just not worth the risk.
Being within the law often has to be proven in court even when it's obvious. Oh boy, I won the case? But it cost me $40,000 in attorney fees and I lost five years off my life from the stress.
All for a $800 antique?
Murph
Last edited:
Model19man
Member
Yes it pays big dividends living in a free state. Places like CA and NY tax the living daylights out of you. The sooner you move the better.
Why would you be telling some clerk that there is gun parts in your package, antique or not. It is still legal to ship gun parts USPS. As long as it is legal to own the part.
I've shipped several rifles this year and they had to be declared because of insurance. Still they were just guns.
When in doubt give PO benefit of the doubt, because they ain't going to give it to you.
I've shipped several rifles this year and they had to be declared because of insurance. Still they were just guns.
When in doubt give PO benefit of the doubt, because they ain't going to give it to you.
Similar threads
- Locked
