Pre-19 or Early Mod 19?

[28WheelGirl]

Hello! I bought a great 19 at a gun show last weekend! It is a 4-screw with s/n K381XXX. It is not marked mod 19. Do you all think this is a pre-19? The s/n date puts it at 1959 (I checked the book), but of course they started stamping model numbers in 1957. So is it a pre-19 or a Mod-19 that somehow did not get stamped? I'd love to hear what everyone thinks! I know Smith doesn't exactly have their serial numbers in order!

 

[PaulDoc]

Good afternoon 28wheelgirl. I think you may have the 1 and 8 mixed up in your ser#. I have k318349 that shipped April 30, 1959 and is a pre-19. Hope that helps.

 

[Hair Trigger]

K381xxx falls in the K350548-K386804 range, which is 1959 according to SCSW. It could be that all frames of that era didn't get stamped with the model number, even though the Catalog says 1957 was when they started stamping model numbers. Some guns sat on storage shelves for months, (and maybe a few years) before an order was received for how that gun was configured and it was shipped out. That is one beautiful .357 Combat Magnum you have there.

 

[Retired W4]

And they were not manufactured, assembled or shipped in a chronological serial number order.

 

[444 Magnum]

It is a looker.

I believe the front sight with the insert is later. Not sure when they started. My 19-1 still has the plain sight.

The -1 is on the bottom

The experts will be along.

Edit: Disregard the above sight insert comment, see below. That's why I asked, I learn something on this forum all the time.

.

 

[JP@AK]

First, it simply isn't true that model stamping began in 1957. The decision to assign model numbers was taken in June, 1957, but actual stamping started later. We have never seen a model-marked gun that shipped earlier than 1958, and there were many non-marked guns shipped in 1958 and 1959.

The lowest serial number that has been identified so far on a Combat Magnum that is marked as a Model 19 is K316819. But that does not mean there aren't units with higher numbers that didn't get marked with the MOD number.

Admittedly, K381299 is pretty darn high to not be marked, but stranger things have happened. Most of those (of all target sight K frame models) with serials above K320000 have model numbers marked on them. But occasionally one will show up unmarked. That seems to be the case here.

So, what the OP has is a Combat Magnum with a high serial number that is not a Model 19.

A terrific find, I might add.

 

[kscharlie]

It is a .357 Combat Magnum, not a Model 19. Yes, it would become the Model 19. Although we all know what it means, there never actually was a "Pre-19". That is collector speak. BTW, the .357 Combat Magnum never was made on a 5-screw frame. They started out as 4-screw models.

Yours is a very, very nice CM. Congratulations on obtaining such a fine specimen.

Edit: Well, Jack was faster than me, once again.

 

[TheTinMan]

It is a .357 Combat Magnum, not a Model 19. Yes, it would become the Model 19. Although we all know what it means, there never actually was a "Pre-19". That is collector speak. BTW, the .357 Combat Magnum never was made on a 5-screw frame. They started out as 4-screw models.

Yours is a very, very nice CM. Congratulations on obtaining such a fine specimen.

Edit: Well, Jack was faster than me, once again.

Thank you! For once I can take something off my wish list without putting anything in my safe and removing money from my account. I didn't know there never was a 5-screw Combat Magnum.

 

[28WheelGirl]

I was wondering about the orange site too.

 

[snw19_357]

I have K31664x which shipped in Sep, 58 and it is model marked.

I agree that since it's not model marked that it's a Combat Magnum but Models 19, 19-1, 19-2, etc. are Combat Magnums too.

It does however have more in common with a Model 19 than 'pre' Combat Magnum (barrel not serialized, serial number IS in the yoke cut, assembly number on yoke and not in yoke cut, don't know about the cylinder) so...

I think this is one of those that we could argue about forever and not come to an agreement on.

 

[28WheelGirl]

Thank-You so much! I'm very excited to have a Combat Magnum!!

 

[snw19_357]

I believe the front sight with the insert is later. Not sure when they started.

I was wondering about the orange site too.

Not sure when the RR inserts started either but the earliest Combat Magnums (K26000x) had them so it could be original. Does it have a white outline rear?

 

[28WheelGirl]

Yes it has a white outline rear.

 

[Babysitr]

WOW! that's a real nice revolver....the only problem is I didn't luck into that one, good for you

 

[Modified]

I have K31664x which shipped in Sep, 58 and it is model marked.

I agree that since it's not model marked that it's a Combat Magnum but Models 19, 19-1, 19-2, etc. are Combat Magnums too.

It does however have more in common with a Model 19 than 'pre' Combat Magnum (barrel not serialized, serial number IS in the yoke cut, assembly number on yoke and not in yoke cut, don't know about the cylinder) so...

I think this is one of those that we could argue about forever and not come to an agreement on.

Could we just call it a "Transitional" Combat Magnum


Whatever everyone wants to call it for collecting reasons doesn't diminish the fact that its a wonderful gun. Congratulations on getting it.

For collecting or sale purposes, calling it a pre-19 is I think "Correct", as the label is one to denote that a gun is not model marked, but in basically all respects the same as a 19. I have a "Pre-17" that letters to being from 1958, and has a high polish blue. I prize it greatly, and love that its an oddity "transitional" piece showing one of the many fun little collecting niches that you can find in S&W collecting.

I would imagine one could have a wonderful little collection comprised exclusively of guns that aren't model marked, but were shipped out after the order came down for model marking. The guns of that era are particularly fine after all.

 

[28WheelGirl]

Not sure when the RR inserts started either but the earliest Combat Magnums (K26000x) had them so it could be original. Does it have a white outline rear?

Could we just call it a "Transitional" Combat Magnum


Whatever everyone wants to call it for collecting reasons doesn't diminish the fact that its a wonderful gun. Congratulations on getting it.

For collecting or sale purposes, calling it a pre-19 is I think "Correct", as the label is one to denote that a gun is not model marked, but in basically all respects the same as a 19. I have a "Pre-17" that letters to being from 1958, and has a high polish blue. I prize it greatly, and love that its an oddity "transitional" piece showing one of the many fun little collecting niches that you can find in S&W collecting.

I would imagine one could have a wonderful little collection comprised exclusively of guns that aren't model marked, but were shipped out after the order came down for model marking. The guns of that era are particularly fine after all.

Thanks!!! Yes, they ARE particularly fine!

 

[28WheelGirl]

I have K31664x which shipped in Sep, 58 and it is model marked.

I agree that since it's not model marked that it's a Combat Magnum but Models 19, 19-1, 19-2, etc. are Combat Magnums too.

It does however have more in common with a Model 19 than 'pre' Combat Magnum (barrel not serialized, serial number IS in the yoke cut, assembly number on yoke and not in yoke cut, don't know about the cylinder) so...

I think this is one of those that we could argue about forever and not come to an agreement on.

Serial number is not on cylinder.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Obviously, JP@AK has answered the question. I have a K-22 Masterpiece whose serial number (K3273xx) apparently marks it as 1958. Furthermore, it has the serial number only on the frame butt, not on cylinder, barrel or crane, yet it is not model-marked.

Facts are where you find them.

 

[glowe]

My take on the Model stamps is if it is not stamped, are not "Model" anything. As discussed above, the printed serial numbers in reference materials are never to be taken as absolute. There was always a overlap period between non-model and model numbered guns in inventory, especially since we track dates by serial numbers that were never shipped in any particular order.

There were simply a bunch of non-model and model marked guns in inventory when the first batches of model numbered guns were completed and neither the company nor the buyer would have cared which gun they got back then. They were not transition guns.

 

[JP@AK]

They were not transition guns.

AMEN!

To be fair, I'm pretty sure "Modified" wrote that in jest.