Pre K32 First Model/Humpback Hammer **Up Dated with Letter***

King Gun Sights and Parts

Here is a link to the article that I was remembering. John Taffin, on page 90 and 89 of the July 2012 edition of GUNS Magazine, talks about King parts and their influence on S&W and Colt.

GUNS Magazine July 2012 Digital Edition

Enjoy,
 
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Thanks Richard, great article.

Here's my one and only 'double cockeyed' hammer marked Micro:

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I've been living under the assumption there were already 104 of the prewar K32 target guns known. We're also aware of a number of 32 caliber M&Ps. No count on those, just that we've seen a number of them at various gun shows and in personal collections. The value probably hasn't been established for those as it has for K32s.

I'm going to guess these guns haven't caught the attention of Roy or peaked his interest to the point where he looks for more that aren't known to collectors. And there is a 3rd class of prewar K frame 32 targets. Those are guns that have been "converted" to 32 caliber from unshipped K22s. We know those exist because David Carroll bought a pair of them at an auction a couple of years ago. When he called Roy to see what he actually had, Roy told him the guns were on a page full of K22s, none of which had been logged out of the vault.

And interesting situation where 150 guns were presumably built but never shipped. Guess that influences the known number both K22s and maybe K32s. If nothing else, it keeps the collectors looking.
 
And there is a 3rd class of prewar K frame 32 targets. Those are guns that have been "converted" to 32 caliber from unshipped K22s. We know those exist because David Carroll bought a pair of them at an auction a couple of years ago. When he called Roy to see what he actually had, Roy told him the guns were on a page full of K22s, none of which had been logged out of the vault.
More data, please Dick.
Never heard this before.
Do you mean that merely the numbers were originally assigned to K-22's? It seems to me that convertingt a rimfire frame to centerfire would be foolish for the factory to do.

Also-
King Goodies & Micro Goodies:
Micro products resemble/copy King products for a very simple reason- Micro was originally founded by former King employees.
 
If you want to see all of what King Gun Sight Company was up to just before WW II, Abby Mouat at Cornell Pub. will sell you a reprint of their 1939 catalog for less than $15. I don't know whether I'm supposed to publish that kind of link on here, but your friend Google should make it easy to find. Although I have no connection with this company, I have made several very satisfactory purchases of their high quality reprints over the years.

Froggie
 
Thanks David
For the link.
Can you imagine if you could go back in time and buy these guns at 1939 prices WoW!! unbelievable what they went for. For some that would be 1 to 2 months wages....unreal.

Rick
 
On the Prewar K-32 question:

Seems to me I have heard of .32-20 targets that were provided with a separate .32 Long cylinder, and I would imagine that .38 M&P Targets could be converted to .32 Long Targets with a couple of fairly simple parts replacements if an order came in while there were a bunch of unsold .38 targets in the vault. I think I would leave the .32-20s out of the K-32 Target classification, and I am not sure what I would do if we found a .38 that was rebuilt as a .32 before leaving the factory. I suspect if it happened in the 1930s, I would group it with the few dozen unquestioned K-32 Targets manufactured late in that decade.

But in some respects I'm still not sure we all agree on what we are including under the heading of "K-32 First Model." In HOSW Roy Jinks says the first such gun was 663107, "completed on April 15, 1938." But since then specimens have turned up with lower serial numbers or earlier shipping dates -- including the one that started this thread, for example, which carries a slightly higher number but shipped in late 1937. Two other guns known to me (one observed, the other known from records) have lower serial numbers but are still above 650000. One of those was shipped in 1936. Are all K-frame .32 targets from the late 1930s to be considered K-32 First Models even if the term was not created by the company until after the first ones were produced? I would argue yes, but I have the sense that not everyone is in agreement.

I am aware of the few K-frame target models produced before and perhaps immediately after WWI in .32 Long, mostly with four inch barrels. I know there is a bit of a simmering discussion over whether these should be considered "K-32 Targets" as the factory used the term in the 1930s. I take no position on that because I am trying to get a grip only the number of .K-frame .32 targets produced between, say, 1935 and 1940, when the military contracts pushed commercial production off of the factory floors.

In Smith & Wesson: 1857-1945, Neal and Jinks identified 83 serial numbers of K-32 First Models. By 10 years later, Jinks reported 94 guns in HOSW, but without a list of serial numbers. The 94 figure has been repeated since, though some additional serial numbers have been reported over the years and a few guns have popped up in forum posts. When reported with serial number, these guns may be "new" guns or guns that appeared on the original list of serial numbers compiled from factory records.

If anybody has serial numbers for observed K-32 First Models between about 650000 and 685000 and would be willing to share them with me for purposes of building a data base, I would very much appreciate hearing about them. At the moment, I have the serial numbers of 17 guns that meet those standards. In one sense, that is not a big number. But as a percentage, that is quite a large quantity for a limited production run. In the cases of other rare guns (production not exceeding 1000 to 1500 units), observed specimens amount to roughly four to six percent of reported production after extended research in forum posts and internet auctions.
 
More data, please Dick.
Never heard this before.
Do you mean that merely the numbers were originally assigned to K-22's? It seems to me that convertingt a rimfire frame to centerfire would be foolish for the factory to do.

Call David on it and get his version first hand. My understanding was he purchased at auction the gun or guns that were unfinished but fitted. Clearly a K32 prewar barrel fitted to the frame. The firing pin retainer was gone and the hole welded over on both sides. Its also fitted with a .32 caliber cylinder. After he got them in his hands he called Roy for information as to the history of them. I guess he was hoping they'd letter as prewar K32s. What Roy told him was the serials are all on a page of K22 Outdoorsman. So it looks like the serial was originally reserved for 22s. But there is no shipping information on them. We've all heard the term "open on company books." When you're getting a letter its the dreaded end. Here I have no idea.

I even wonder how many pages of the shipping information are blank. What happened to the other guns with those serial numbers? Did they prepare pages and then not produce the frames? Did they make the frames and not complete them? Were they scrapped going into WWII? Why did these escape?

Are you coming to NGD in two weeks? You could inspect the gun.

Just talked to David Carroll. He says its been too many guns ago and he doesn't remember all the details, but he seems to think it was only one gun, not two as I remember the story.
 
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Thanks, Dick.


Are all K-frame .32 targets from the late 1930s to be considered K-32 First Models even if the term was not created by the company until after the first ones were produced?
Yes.
Of course they are.
"K-32 First Model" is a collector term, not a factory model name.
They had not produced a later model at that time, so you would order a "K-32 Target" (ONLY model :D).
The invoice would show a "K-32 Target".

Earlier dates are interesting, but lower serial numbers not so much (to me). We all know playing the serial number game with S&W means the odds are with the House! ;)
 
I'm not an expert on much of anything. The "Frankengun" is serial 679645. Bet no one else has a K22 or M&P with a serial number close to it. Its been rough ground but appears for all the world to be fitted and ready to fire. The rimfire firing pin has been removed and the bushing like that used in the M&P or M&P Target guns is installed. The cylinder looks like its been blued in the past as it has nice finish in the flutes but the cylinder outer surface seems to be reground. The edges are sharp and crisp. Rough grind marks are apparent on the frame and barrel. Grips are brand new but with some oil staining (image that after only 72 years). So it remains a K32 or K22 franken gun in 32 S&W long "CTG". :D Yes, its one of those sought after ctg guns. If I were photographically inclined, I'd take pictures. But I'm not.
 
David, et al,

I thought you guys would like a chance to print this letter.
From a short answer to an order inquiry, we sure learn a lot!

Like:
We see that on April 10, 1941, the factory-
1. has K-32's IN stock.
2. has NO K frame magnas ("for some time past")
3. has NO K centerfire Hump Back hammers ("for some time past")
4. has NO 38 M&P Targets ("and it may be a long while...")


More PROOF the digitizing of the records by SWHF will teach us a LOT!


handejector-albums-more-pics-picture8170-out-stock-letter.jpg
 
Well i received the .32 M&P Target yesterday and i went through it and will tell you what i've found. All serial # matching except the grips as they are numbered to another gun 671384. The grip adapter is a S&W Product whether it came on the gun from the factory this way wont know that till i letter it.
The Vented Rib is not a King Sight Product what it is haven't got a clue as there is no makers mark or stamp of anykind unless i remove it to look further but for now i'm going to leave it the way it is. The vented rib is pinned at the front sight and is fastened by one machine screw at the front on top of the strap above the forcing cone and the screw does protude threw the top strap not liking that to much you would think that would weaken it man people do the weirdest things LOL!..

As for the grips you will see a Big T mark on each panel and were filled in with somekind of wood filler i'm thinking that this gun might have been in some kind of display case in its time and was mounted on some sort of holder and was glued down to it thats my guess can't think of anything else a little big for initials.

We all know that modifications ruin the value of these great firearms but when i bought this gun i bought it blind which means sight unseen thinking i was getting a 32 H.E. thats the way it was listed untill i received the photos like the ones at the beginning of this thread then knew this aint no H.E. but some sort of M&P Target in .32 Long not thinking of a K32 1st Model its bad enough that there aren,t to many K32's of any model up here in Canada i,ve seen a few 16-4's for sale but that is about it so im pretty proud to own something as rare as this one..

Rick
 
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Rick,

Thanks for the additional photos, looks even better. There is nothing to worry about regarding weakening due to the rear rib screw. That's the factory rear sight front screw hole. It's all the way thru the frame, in the same location even on my Smith 44 Special target N frames. If I'm seeing it correctly, the rib slips under the rear sight tang, and both the sight and the rib are secured by the same factory screw, although a longer screw.

It would be very easy to remove the rib (not that you want to but just saying) with no evidence of how it was attached. The gun was not modified in any way for the rib. You would just need a standard length screw and front sight blade pin to restore the gun to original configuration.
 
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Wow, what a magnificent find. There are grail guns, there are Grail guns, but that one has to be a Holy Grail gun! (I said "Holy" something when I first saw your post!) Congratulations! Now for a matching .22 and .38?:D
 
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