Pre-Model 10 question

[Mzuri]

I was in a pawn shop yesterday and looked at two revolvers that I am tentatively interested in. One they listed as a Model 37, but it is a steel frame, six shot with a 2" barrel that I am near certain is actually a pre-model 10. The serial number, which is hard to read, starts with a 3 (maybe a 5 or 8) followed by a 7 and think they concluded that was a model number. It's a square butt, tapered barrel, half moon sight, wearing diamond magnas. I was so pleased with myself for figuring out that it was not a 37 that I forgot to count the screws. The finish is excellent and the stocks have one ding but are otherwise in good condition. They are asking $500.

The other is a 12-3 2". It's in rougher condition, but my understanding is that 12s loose their finish more easily than non-airweights. It is also $500. I have always wanted a 12.

So my questions:

1) how do I tell if the pre-10 has been reblued?

2) what are fair prices for these guns?

3) if the pre-10 has been refinished how would that change the price.

This is a shop that tends to list guns at high prices then settle for less. Both have been there for a while. The 12 has been there for over a year. I am tempted to offer 700 for both.

Thanks

 

[Targets Guy]

Welcome to the forum.

A photo would be a good place to start. $500 seems high but "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

A refinish will remove the revolver from the interest of collectors but a good shooter is a good shooter and snubby pre-10s bring a premium.

 

[wheelgun610]

On the steel framed gun, was there also a letter (S, or C) preceding the serial number? I'm referring to the number on the butt of the frame, btw.

Did the hammer have a slight downward curve, or more of an 'up-turned' spur? These are things that will help estimate the age, and can influence the value....

Mark

 

[Mzuri]

Thanks for the responses. I will have go back and examine the butt and hammer again. Is there an easy way to determine if it has been refinished?

 

[wheelgun610]

Markings are often blurred if a gun has beed poorly buffed, and the joint between the frame and side plate may have a gap between them. Those are two dead give aways.

Mark

 

[DWalt]

I have a very strong bias against a Model 12 or indeed any alloy frame revolver. I believe they are best avoided. Regarding the "pre-Model 10" which has a more precise meaning to collectors than you might expect, you haven't provided much helpful information to base a value estimate on. An average condition M&P or Model 10 with a 4" or 5" barrel would not be worth $500, but with an original 2" barrel it could be a very different story unless it is a butchered WWII British service revolver. And there are LOTS of those around. ALWAYS know exactly what the gun is before you flop your credit card on the counter. And don't believe the guy behind that counter.

 

[Mzuri]

Update. It's a five screw. Serial number is c 161xxx.

Does that suggest pre-10 or m&p and what is the difference?

 

[gmborkovic]

Hello Mzuri, and welcome to the Forum. The straight Poop on value is here with alot more information. The Mod 12 is not a big score, but the other one would make me stop and look. Best

 

[Jim Watson]

As was explained to me, a "pre-model 10" is like a model 10 in every respect except it does not have the model number stamped under the yoke. An earlier "change" with some small mechanical difference is not a "pre".

 

[Wiregrassguy]

This is a .38 M&P snub from 1948. Note the stamping on the barrel and the shape of the hammer (long throw). On the other side is a one line Made in USA stamp on the lower front and a large logo on the sideplate. Its serial number starts with an S.

This is a pre-model 10 from 1949 with a C SN prefix. It is a round butt but they come in both round and square like the M&P above. Note the shape of the hammer (short throw). The barrel stamp is the same as the M&P and it has the 4 line Marcas Registradas / Made in USA stamp on the right lower front. Note also it has the half-round front sight that would change before model marking began.

Neither gun has been refinished. One telltale of a refinished gun is hammer and trigger being blued. Look closely at the stampings for sharpness. IF they are light or appear to have rounded edges on the lettering, it may be due to polishing before refinishing. As mentioned above, the sideplate seam should not have a gap.

Sideplate seam should look like this:

HTH!

 

[DWalt]

That SN would date its shipping from about April 1951 and it would be a pre-Model 10 (defined as made in the approximate period of 1948-58). It should have the sharp shoulder magna grips. It would not be a chopped British service revolver. Depending upon its condition, $500 may not be too far off the mark, but negotiating downward is advisable.

There are some mechanical lockwork differences which occurred in early 1948 which provides a (sort of) boundary between the postwar M&P revolvers and the "pre-Model 10" (not a term S&W used) which started around SN S990000. They are actually all M&P revolvers, but S&W started a model numbering system in 1957-58 period. The first Model 10s started around SN C436xxx.

 

[Tyrod]

The model 12 is also interesting. You're correct, the frame finish is weaker because it's essentially paint and a poor one at that. A 12-3 should be ok to use occasionally with standard velocity ammo. IMHO +P shouldn't be used. Check for crack(s) in the frame, under the barrel with the yoke/cylinder open. If it's mechanically & structurally sound there may be a solution to the finish issue. Duracoat has recently come out with a spray on bluing for guns. I haven't seen any of the blued Duracoat guns in person, but the pictures look good. I have a 12-3 in pristine condition. At first glance, the frame and barrel/cylinder are a good color match. At a certain angle, in the right light there is a difference in color. The frame is darker than the steel parts. It would be much the same as a model 37 of the same vintage.

 

[Mzuri]

Thanks for all the feedback. I am going to attempt to post a photo. Is the consensus that anything up to $500 is reasonable price?

 

[Absalom]

From the looks of that photo at least (the lighting isn't optimal for a finish evaluation, but it looks very nice and original), $500 would be an excellent buy on that gun, and it would probably bring more on an auction site.

 

[snuffy51]

I'm not an expert on anything, but that is a nice one.

 

[jsfricks]

Grips are probably original with the high shoulder, and if the rest of the gun looks as good as that side, get it. Throw cash on the counter, probably can get it for less than $500 out the door.

 

[Texas Star]

Thanks for all the feedback. I am going to attempt to post a photo. Is the consensus that anything up to $500 is reasonable price?

Where do you live? Your board name is a Swahili word. As in M'zuri sana, meaning, Very Good. "Piga m'zuri sana, bwana" means very nice shot, Bwana/Mem'Sahib." I paid attention to the wordage and glossaries in safari hunting books and articles. I can ask for a cup of tea, too: "Letti chai kwa bwana."
This does me no good at all when dealing with local waiters...

Gun buying is like selling real estate: it's all about location, location, location.

If you're in Kenya, as your name suggests, that's a whole different situation than if you were in South Africa or Texas.

Even in the USA, values vary by area.

Some here would say that if that gun is in really good condition, it's worth the $500. That 'd be about tops for me and I'd spend the money on a stainless gun, anyway. But if you really want an old blued snub, the price is fair.

However, if you really can't tell a Model 36 or Model 37 from an old M&P, you're lucky this board is here!

I hope you'll be pleased with whichever gun you buy. If concealment is a major factor, I think the presumed Model 36, if in good condition, is a better choice than the larger old M&P and the gun is probably warranted for use with Plus P ammo, if the model number is stamped in the frame, meaning post -1958 manufacture.

Many here do like those old M&P snubs.

As Dwalt said, avoid Airweight guns, like Model 12. Recoil is worse, the aluminum frames tend to crack, and the frame finish chips.

The hammer shape shows this gun to have been made from 1948-about 1955. I call it the squiggle hammer. S&W called it the Speed Hammer, and it arrived with the postwar short action.

There isn't enough light on the sideplate in the photo to tell if it's been reblued. If not, $500 is an average price in most US states. Online prices are usually inflated by optimistic sellers.

Snub nosed M&P revolvers are much less common than those with longer barrels, so that tends to let them sell for more.

If one may ask, how'd you choose your board name?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Yes. Get it.

 

[Mzuri]

You are right that Mzuri is a Swahili word. I live in the US but have spent a a fair amount of time in East Africa and learned Swahili in my now distant teens.

I agree about the location issue. I live in a smallish town with a number of shops that sell used guns. I am struck that pricing here on S&Ws seems almost arbitrary. Most shops seem to ignore or be unaware of collector value and just treat their used Smiths as "old guns." I suspect that is the nature of the local market. Pawn shops here sell mostly to people who need or want a gun to shoot, so they can't count on buyers placing a higher value on a gun because it has extra screws in the side plate, a flat latch or whatever. The same shop that has the pre-10 has a 15 that looks like it has been sweated on daily for years for $550 and they clearly mis-indentified the pre-10 as a 37 despite its heft and extra chamber. They have been in business for years so they must know how to make the pawn shop business work, but they don't seem that savy about older Smiths.

 

[bulletslap]

I gave just a little less than 500 for a M&P snub with a C125 prefixed serial number in similar condition (except for buggered) sideplate screws a few weeks back. My advice is that if you are wanting a snubbie of that vintage buy it, if your are wanting to scoop up something under priced to flip keep looking. Always try to negotiate the price down of course if it is a dealer.

I love my similar snubbie, it is a great old revolver.

 

[vytoland]

that is a nice snub nose revolver, possibly made in late 1950 or early 1951.

i'd start the offering negotiations at $400 and see what happens from that point.

 

[jmace57]

The $500 price in my opinion is right in line with what I have seen in that condition. Sort of bumping a little towards the high end - but they are tough to find in that condition. You see a LOT of 4,5 and 6 inchers, but not many of the snubs.

 

[Texas Star]

You are right that Mzuri is a Swahili word. I live in the US but have spent a a fair amount of time in East Africa and learned Swahili in my now distant teens.

I agree about the location issue. I live in a smallish town with a number of shops that sell used guns. I am struck that pricing here on S&Ws seems almost arbitrary. Most shops seem to ignore or be unaware of collector value and just treat their used Smiths as "old guns." I suspect that is the nature of the local market. Pawn shops here sell mostly to people who need or want a gun to shoot, so they can't count on buyers placing a higher value on a gun because it has extra screws in the side plate, a flat latch or whatever. The same shop that has the pre-10 has a 15 that looks like it has been sweated on daily for years for $550 and they clearly mis-indentified the pre-10 as a 37 despite its heft and extra chamber. They have been in business for years so they must know how to make the pawn shop business work, but they don't seem that savy about older Smiths.

That's been my normal experience with pawn shops. They also tell more lies than true gun dealers, but it's relative.

 

[KEN L]

The finish appears to be original. I'd offer $350 cash and see where it goes from there. Can't wait to see more pics once you get it.

 

[DWalt]

The post-WWII M&P snubbies (1946-48) have a little more collector interest and will command a little higher price, and there wouldn't be much question that $500 would be reasonable. The pre-Model 10 M&P snubbies in higher original condition (but without original box and paperwork) would probably be a little lower. I'd say that if you could talk them down to $450 or less, you won't go wrong. Not too long ago I found an early Model 10 snubby with original box/papers and little signs of use, other than a cylinder turn line, in a gun shop with a tag price of $650. I didn't think that was terrible.

There were very few pre-WWII M&P snubbies made, and the prices on those are out of sight. I was originally thinking that there might have been a slim chance that the one you saw might have been one of those.

 

[Mzuri]

Thanks everyone. I'll see what they can do on Monday.

I still have not written off the 12. I think it would round out the K-frame collection and I have to think that all the airweight j-frames survive being shot so an airweight K ought to at least be ok with regular pressure ammo. What I would like to do is get both. The 12 has been there for at least a year and they must be getting anxious to get it out of the case.

 

[DWalt]

If you go after the Model 12, make sure you carefully examine the area where the barrel screws into the frame. At the bottom (above the extractor rod) is where frame cracks occur. If there is a crack, you have a paperweight. There is also a slight difference between Model 12 and Model 10 grips.

I always avoid Model 12s, but if one popped up in mint (uncracked) condition and at a really reasonable price I might buy it, but more as a curio as I wouldn't be shooting it much. In the last two years I have had the opportunity to buy two different cracked-frame Model 12s for $100 each, but I didn't buy either. Maybe I should have as I imagine the parts might be worth at least that much.

 

[codenamedave]

*snip*
This is a shop that tends to list guns at high prices then settle for less. Both have been there for a while. The 12 has been there for over a year. I am tempted to offer 700 for both.

Thanks

That's what I'd do, while fully prepared to let them talk me up to $800. $900 - maybe, maybe not.

 

[Mzuri]

Got it for $400 and with option on the 12 for $325. I did not see any signs of cracking on the frame and the more I looked at it the better the finish looked. I'll post a few more pictures of the pre-10 tomorrow and I may yet buy the 12.

 

[sandspur6]

You done good. Congrats.