IronSkillet
Member
This would be for serial numbers during the transition period just before Model #s started being used. 1956ish+? Have used the data posted online from Northeastshooters.
C386XXX
C386XXX
Pre Model-10 Serial # Ending Range
- Thread starter IronSkillet
- Start date
First of all, IronSkillet, model numbers didn't show up until 1958.
Now, I show non-model-marked .38 M&P revolvers up to at least C434000. The lowest Model 10 and Model 12 units that I've recorded were in the C437000 and C438000 range. But there is a significant overlap with some non-model-marked examples shipping well into 1959.
I personally have never seen a Model 10 with a serial number as low as C386000. I do show an M&P at C387406. It is a 5” example (not model-marked) and it shipped in April, 1957. I also show them in the C388000 range shipping in the summer and autumn of 1957.
In other words, your source is off by a mile.
Now, I show non-model-marked .38 M&P revolvers up to at least C434000. The lowest Model 10 and Model 12 units that I've recorded were in the C437000 and C438000 range. But there is a significant overlap with some non-model-marked examples shipping well into 1959.
I personally have never seen a Model 10 with a serial number as low as C386000. I do show an M&P at C387406. It is a 5” example (not model-marked) and it shipped in April, 1957. I also show them in the C388000 range shipping in the summer and autumn of 1957.
In other words, your source is off by a mile.
OP
IronSkillet
Member
Thanks for the information, just to be clear I made no affirming statement to indicate when S&W began marking firearms with specific model identification.
Jim Spupica mentions 57, but I will defer to you're knowledge on the subject. Simply put after completing my my collection of Model-10's impart thanks to Max Hayward's collection being sold off my intention is to add a pre-model 10 serialized just before model number production starting. Although the Northeasthooters online information may not be a perfect match, it is one of the more complete online data point for reference. They have a disclaimer saying such and suggest for more accurate information a letter to Roy Jinks is advised. I would not by any means consider this data "off by a mile". My No-Dash C530502 is after the C437000 & C438000 you reference looking at the C386000 should be darn near the end of pre-model number revolvers maybe 1956 or even later. Using the aforesaid online information listed pre model serial numbers do not appear in the range for this inquiry. C277,555 – C314,031….…1954 – 56
C402,924 – C405,018…….1957.
Again I thank you for assisting me the information you have provide is greatly appreciated.
Jim Spupica mentions 57, but I will defer to you're knowledge on the subject. Simply put after completing my my collection of Model-10's impart thanks to Max Hayward's collection being sold off my intention is to add a pre-model 10 serialized just before model number production starting. Although the Northeasthooters online information may not be a perfect match, it is one of the more complete online data point for reference. They have a disclaimer saying such and suggest for more accurate information a letter to Roy Jinks is advised. I would not by any means consider this data "off by a mile". My No-Dash C530502 is after the C437000 & C438000 you reference looking at the C386000 should be darn near the end of pre-model number revolvers maybe 1956 or even later. Using the aforesaid online information listed pre model serial numbers do not appear in the range for this inquiry. C277,555 – C314,031….…1954 – 56
C402,924 – C405,018…….1957.
Again I thank you for assisting me the information you have provide is greatly appreciated.
As far as I recall, there were no engineering changes made when the Model 10 was introduced? The term "transition" is really over-used and, in my opinion, requires a change in appearance or mechanics that changed again when the new model was formally introduced. That means an intermediate short-lived gun where not many were made.
In reality, model numbering simply started while there were older guns in inventory, or still being manufactured, that continued to be sold until gone. They were interspersed with model numbered guns. I always thought that the company did not care about which gun they shipped, plus the buyer was not aware nor cared which they received.
In reality, model numbering simply started while there were older guns in inventory, or still being manufactured, that continued to be sold until gone. They were interspersed with model numbered guns. I always thought that the company did not care about which gun they shipped, plus the buyer was not aware nor cared which they received.
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The other big factor to consider when trying to nail down dates for S&W's is that we base everything on the shipping date and not the date of manufacture. The ATF has always accepted this practice since every gun has to be manufactured before it can be shipped so basing anything on shipping date adds to the guns real age.
Then you add the way that the factory stored guns waiting to be shipped and you get newer guns shipping before older ones. Older manufactured guns were placed on the shelves first and then newer guns placed in front. Shipping clerks go into the vault and grab a gun for shipment not caring where on the shelf it was or whether there are older manufactured guns sitting further back. This is why Dr. Jinks has always stated that you cannot base a guns age based on serial number vs shipping date and only a letter can give you the answer.
With model numbers and pre model numbers, the same situation arises. Since the dates that we are all familiar with are shipping dates, the real determining factor as to when a given model was model marked would depend on demand for that model and when did the actual engineering order hit the factory floor.
The model 10 was a big production arm so chances are frames were model marked fairly close to the date of the engineering change. A gun that was not in high demand may not show up with model markings until months or even a year later if no production run was done.
I hope this makes sense, at least it did when I wrote it.......
Then you add the way that the factory stored guns waiting to be shipped and you get newer guns shipping before older ones. Older manufactured guns were placed on the shelves first and then newer guns placed in front. Shipping clerks go into the vault and grab a gun for shipment not caring where on the shelf it was or whether there are older manufactured guns sitting further back. This is why Dr. Jinks has always stated that you cannot base a guns age based on serial number vs shipping date and only a letter can give you the answer.
With model numbers and pre model numbers, the same situation arises. Since the dates that we are all familiar with are shipping dates, the real determining factor as to when a given model was model marked would depend on demand for that model and when did the actual engineering order hit the factory floor.
The model 10 was a big production arm so chances are frames were model marked fairly close to the date of the engineering change. A gun that was not in high demand may not show up with model markings until months or even a year later if no production run was done.
I hope this makes sense, at least it did when I wrote it.......
Jim's SCSW does mention 1957. But the thing to remember is that the decision to use model numbers occurred in June, 1957. But actual marking of units with model numbers did not begin immediately - several factors were involved and any management orders were always implemented at the direction of the floor supervisor, hence almost never immediately.
It would be, of course.
Well, I gave you some numbers for comparison. But the beginning of model marking certainly did not occur in 1956 and, in fact, it may not have occurred until early in 1958. What we do know, as I mentioned before, is that no model marked gun that we know of shipped in 1957.
You are very welcome. That is why many of us are here - to share what knowledge we have accumulated. And we are always accumulating more. We'll never know all that there is to know, but we try to get as close as we can by sharing information with each other.
In searching another section of this forum, I searched using first 1956 and then 1957. I found a listing for a Model 36 that was shipped in May of 1957.
FWIW
FWIW
Ah, the joys of Smith&Wesson collecting. Case in point; serial number Vs. assembly date. The 44 Magnum seems to have a wide spread in both directions. The post WW II 1917 Army comes to mind as well.
James
As we discussed privately, this makes no sense. There must be some mistake here, since management hadn't even decided to assign model numbers in May, 1957.
Very possible. Human error always is highly likely. Is there a record of the various engineering changes listed or written somewhere that can be accessed?
Some of the engineering changes are listed in Roy's book, History of Smith & Wesson (1977).
On page 170, changes for the fixed sight K frames are listed.
On page 178, changes for the adjustable sight K frames are listed.
These tables show only changes after 1950.
As for model marking, the date Roy gives for the fixed sight revolvers is June 12, 1957 (five days after the management decision was voted on). For the adjustable sight revolvers, he gives the date as December 22, 1959. Interestingly, the same date (12/22/59) is given for the change to the extractor rod threads.
The book does not have a table for engineering changes on the J frame (Chiefs Special series, including the Bodyguard Airweight) but in the text on page 224, Roy cites 1957 as when model number 36 was assigned to the Chiefs Special.
On page 170, changes for the fixed sight K frames are listed.
On page 178, changes for the adjustable sight K frames are listed.
These tables show only changes after 1950.
As for model marking, the date Roy gives for the fixed sight revolvers is June 12, 1957 (five days after the management decision was voted on). For the adjustable sight revolvers, he gives the date as December 22, 1959. Interestingly, the same date (12/22/59) is given for the change to the extractor rod threads.
The book does not have a table for engineering changes on the J frame (Chiefs Special series, including the Bodyguard Airweight) but in the text on page 224, Roy cites 1957 as when model number 36 was assigned to the Chiefs Special.
I should have mentioned that in Roy's earlier book (jointly authored with Robert Neal in 1966), there is a section on engineering changes from 1919 until 1951. It should be noted, however, that this is not an exhaustive list (it is titled "Random Notes") The list is on pages 234-239.
bmcgilvray
Member
This means that I am pre-model-marked for I made my first appearance in May of 1957.
Thanks all for this thread discussion for it clarifies the appearance of Model numbers on the most common of Smith &Wesson models.
DWalt
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Just from my personal listing of M&Ps, C4220xx has no model number stamped and C4298xx does have a model number stamped. But that is not definitive information and only suggests that K-frame model numbering could have occurred somewhere within that SN range. Other revolver types could have started model numbering at different times.
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