"Pre" Models

[flundertaker]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

 

[Doc44]

Pre-10, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 39, to identify a few (and there are many more).

Bill

 

[JP@AK]

Bill is correct in that the number of models that fit both categories is quite large.

One model that comes to mind immediately that does not qualify would be the .32-20 Hand Ejector. It was last cataloged in 1940 and there is good evidence that production actually stopped sometime before that, perhaps as long as a decade earlier. Hence, there was never a production .32-20 that carried a model number. All of them are pre-WWII units.

On the other hand, the Models 48, 49 and 53 would be examples of models that did not exist before model numbers were used.

BTW, summer 1957 is when model numbers were assigned. However, model numbers don't show up on guns shipped until 1958.

 

[Truckman]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

 

[StrawHat]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

 

[Model19man]

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

Indeed there is no reason I would ever use that term because when Smith & Wesson invented model numbers they did. Prior to that the revolvers had names. There was no pre - anything.

 

[glowe]

All models of S&W revolvers ever built had an official name and none made before 1957 or 1958 were named pre-anything. Just check period S&W catalogs to find the proper names and use them.

 

[cmdrcody]

Indeed there is no reason I would ever use that term because when Smith & Wesson invented model numbers they did. Prior to that the revolvers had names. There was no pre - anything.

The box for my 3.5" pre model 27 says .357 Magnum.

 

[flundertaker]

All models of S&W revolvers ever built had an official name and none made before 1957 or 1958 were named pre-anything. Just check period S&W catalogs to find the proper names and use them.

I get it but it’s like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There’s no going back. There’s at least 4 other threads with the term in the title alone on the first page on this subforum. No telling how many others have references to the term in the thread. Being technically correct is one thing and educating people is fine but it reminds of the last wannamaker show. A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the “model 27”, his reply was, “I don’t have a model 27”, I sighed and said “can I see the pre-27”. He said “I don’t have a pre-27”. I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said “that’s the .357 magnum”. I pointed to the security six next to it and said “that’s a .357 magnum as well” he replied “not the .357 magnum”. Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in. Needless to say I hope he’s still trying to sell it by being unnecessarily stubborn.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hey, it stimulates trade.
There's a Registered Magnum, a Non-Registered Magnum, a Transitional Magnum, a pre-27, a 27, a 27-1, and a 27-2. There are later ones, but the -2 as the last of the "P&R" is about the latest one with a fan base.

So, seven distinct guns, don't you want a COMPLETE collection?

 

[Jack Flash]

We all have our preferences, our likes and dislikes, but I agree with Flundertaker that you can easily go overboard with being a stickler about using the precise terms. If I ran into a seller like he described, I would have no further contact with the jerk.

 

[SouthNarc]

A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the “model 27”, his reply was, “I don’t have a model 27”, I sighed and said “can I see the pre-27”. He said “I don’t have a pre-27”. I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said “that’s the .357 magnum”. I pointed to the security six next to it and said “that’s a .357 magnum as well” he replied “not the .357 magnum”. Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in. Needless to say I hope he’s still trying to sell it by being unnecessarily stubborn.

Wow....

Someone who treats another like that IN PERSON has either A) a fairly significant developmental disorder, or B) has never worn the physical consequences for being rude and disrespectful.

 

[Retired W4]

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

Everybody knows the Falcon was the Pre-Mustang.

 

[Hondo44]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

The answers to your 1st and 3rd questions is correct and right.

Pre model is just one example of a collector shorthand term that can be useful but more often misunderstood and mis-used. An egregious example is calling a pre war .38 M&P a pre model 10. More common examples are similar to this: calling a .32 Hand Ejector Improved I frame a pre model 30. There are three post war pre model number .32 Hand Ejector models that are not “Pre-Models”.

It’s better to avoid the term and learn the Model names and use them, and for more precise identification, use the collector names and/or screw count.

 

[Checkman]

A seller had what I referred to as a model 27 in a glass case with several other guns. I asked to look at the “model 27”, his reply was, “I don’t have a model 27”, I sighed and said “can I see the pre-27”. He said “I don’t have a pre-27”. I gave him a what the look and pointed at the gun. He said “that’s the .357 magnum”. I pointed to the security six next to it and said “that’s a .357 magnum as well” he replied “not the .357 magnum”. Yeah whatever, I heard all I need from this seller, he was being difficult for no reason other than being technically correct and playing name games when he knew from my first question which gun I was interested in.

That seller sounds like a pedantic jerk.

 

[glowe]

. . . as Kevin Costner said in the Untouchables . . .

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvws6by_i9k[/ame]

 

[JMD999]

When "searching " for them its good to search using both identifiers- The -pre- model number, and the old Model name.
(just stating the obvious)

 

[long colt frazier]

Hey, it stimulates trade.
There's a Registered Magnum, a Non-Registered Magnum, a Transitional Magnum, a pre-27, a 27, a 27-1, and a 27-2. There are later ones, but the -2 as the last of the "P&R" is about the latest one with a fan base.

So, seven distinct guns, don't you want a COMPLETE collection?

Well all I need is a non-registered magnum;-)

 

[paplinker]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers. So guns that ceased production prior to 1957 and those whose manufacture began after 1957 would never have a "pre-model" version, correct? I am curios what's the list of guns that there are "pre-model" versions of? Obvious there's pre 27, pre 29 but Im guessing there's a bunch. Some may have long since gone away but if they spanned the just the right few years in the mid and late 50's then their out there, right?

I bet you the day a Registered magnum shows up at his shop he will not list it as The 357 Magnum.

23 years of changes on The 357 Magnum

I might have had some fun questions for him asking about the gun.

 

[GypsmJim]

About 15 years ago I went into a Gander Mountain and spied a .357 S&W in the display case. It was labeled as a Model 27, but I knew that it was not a model numbered gun (you can call it "pre" if you want).

The clerk said it was priced low because it had a problem with the trigger. (It had a trigger shoe on it.) I said "I see".

Upon inspection, it appeared unfired. No box though.

When he flipped over the tag it was $295.

That was the fastest my credit card ever got pulled out of my wallet.