Pre Victory 38 Spl 5"

[chiefdave]

I have a 5" Pre Victory in 38 Spl. on the way and wonder how uncommon this variant is. S/N 912361, 5" barrel marked 38 SPECIAL CTG, all numbers including the checkered service stocks match. I'm guessing 1/42 ship date.

 

[hkcavalier]

Sounds fairly uncommon since the "regular" .38 Specials of the day were 4" while the .38S&Ws for the Brits were 5".

 

[Absalom]

I have a 5" Pre Victory in 38 Spl. on the way and wonder how uncommon this variant is. S/N 912361, 5" barrel marked 38 SPECIAL CTG, all numbers including the checkered service stocks match. I'm guessing 1/42 ship date.

Hm. That’s interesting in a few ways.

Serial 912361 is late for checkered stocks, but if the numbers match, that’s all good. I have 910507 that already has smooth walnut. You’re right on the ship date; mine shipped 1/27/42. What finish does yours have? Lanyard loop present?

More peculiar is the 5” barrel for a .38 Special at that time. That’s not something we’re used to seeing. By that time, the production had generally standardized on 4” for .38 Special and 5” for .38 S&W for the British.

Looking forward to seeing some pictures when possible! ;)

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Pate discusses those prewar/early war 5" shipments. If his list is inclusive, there aren't many. He says they shipped in Oct - Dec '41.

Congrats on a neat find.

I know you'll treat us to the obligatory photos after you get it in hand.

 

[H Richard]

I think it may be commonly referred to as a Pre Victory. I had #833351 which Roy advised was shipped Oct 41, it wound up in Australia, and had a rebuild date of 1959, with a parkerized type finish. It had magna type stocks # within about 10 of the actual gun #.

 

[Art Doc]

I'm certainly no expert,

Like I said, I'm no expert.

 

[chiefdave]

Hm. That’s interesting in a few ways.

What finish does yours have? Lanyard loop present?

Looking forward to seeing some pictures when possible! ;)

Brushed blue and the lanyard loop is there. I checked Pate's book before bidding. Will post pix when it gets here.

 

[murphydog]

As a .38 Special, and without military or foreign stamps of any kind it very likely shipped to a law enforcement or defense-related security organization.

 

[Absalom]

As Alan says, if this is indeed an original 5” barreled M&P in .38 Special from January 1942, it has nothing to do with the British or scouring the warehouse for parts. It would be a pretty rare bird and made for some official purpose or agency stateside. That serial range falls into the time when S&W was actually not supplying users directly, but shipping (non-military) revolvers in bulk to the DSC (which only lasted until about March 1942).

 

[delcrossv]

Brushed blue and the lanyard loop is there. I checked Pate's book before bidding. Will post pix when it gets here.

Pate's book? (kinda new to this)

 

[Absalom]

Pate's book? (kinda new to this)

See attached picture. It’s the standard reference for wartime US handguns other than the 1911.

 

[chiefdave]

Mr. Jinks gave a ship date of 2/42. He called it a commercial shipment. I thought everything was going to the military or DSC by then. Was S&W still allowed to ship directly to non government customers?

 

[Art Doc]

Here's my 5" 38 Special Victory Model. Gun shipped in 1942...er, the barrel shipped in 1939.

 

[Absalom]

Mr. Jinks gave a ship date of 2/42. He called it a commercial shipment. I thought everything was going to the military or DSC by then. Was S&W still allowed to ship directly to non government customers?

I saw Roy’s reply. This is getting curiouser and curiouser. It does indicate that the gun is legit, 5” barrel and all. This is screaming to be lettered :D

As for your question, at least based on my reading of Pate the answer should be no. The factory at that time really had no capacity for regular commercial production; if you read Pate, especially the Appendix D with the DSC ExComm minutes, the British contracts monopolized production to the degree that by 10/41 they had to gracefully agree to allow diversion of 50 guns per day for DSC purposes so US version M&P’s were available at all for essential agencies.

But this could be just a matter of wording. I have copies of letters for guns on a “Defense Supplies Corporation Contract for Commercial Sales”, which went to approved non-agency, non-military recipients like defense contractors. Could be that.

My favorite example attached. Not my gun or letter. :)

 

[Muley Gil]

I saw Roy’s reply. This is getting curiouser and curiouser. It does indicate that the gun is legit, 5” barrel and all. This is screaming to be lettered :D

As for your question, at least based on my reading of Pate the answer should be no. The factory at that time really had no capacity for regular commercial production; if you read Pate, especially the Appendix D with the DSC ExComm minutes, the British contracts monopolized production to the degree that by 10/41 they had to gracefully agree to allow diversion of 50 guns per day for DSC purposes so US version M&P’s were available at all for essential agencies.

But this could be just a matter of wording. I have copies of letters for guns on a “Defense Supplies Corporation Contract for Commercial Sales”, which went to approved non-agency, non-military recipients like defense contractors. Could be that.

My favorite example attached. Not my gun or letter. :)

Sweet Gun!!!!

 

[chiefdave]

Here is a couple of pictures from the auction site. I seem to recall a similar pre Victory that lettered as being shipped directly to a PD in Indiana.

 

[ordnanceguy]

That's a nice looking gun, Chief.

The Victory Model Database shows another civilian, 5", .38 Special identical to your gun and less than 50 numbers away. It shipped in mid-January, 1942. It was 1 of 10 units in the shipment and went to some guy named Paul Eaton in Waltham, Mass. Perhaps he was a law enforcement official.

So, from this we know that there were scattered, small shipments still going to civilian destinations more than a month after Pearl Harbor.

 

[lestert357]

See attached picture. It’s the standard reference for wartime US handguns other than the 1911.

Absalom, does the Pate book pictured in your post have any information on the Model 1917 Army DA 45’s, and if so, how comprehensive is it?

 

[kscharlie]

Nice find, Chief. I am curious about the positioning of the serial number on the butt. Does the number read from the toe inward to the lanyard loop, or does it read from the lanyard loop to the toe? Reason I am asking is because I am looking at one that reads from the toe inward. I know practically nothing about these pre-Victory models and do not know which orientation is correct.

 

[Texas Star]

As Alan says, if this is indeed an original 5” barreled M&P in .38 Special from January 1942, it has nothing to do with the British or scouring the warehouse for parts. It would be a pretty rare bird and made for some official purpose or agency stateside. That serial range falls into the time when S&W was actually not supplying users directly, but shipping (non-military) revolvers in bulk to the DSC (which only lasted until about March 1942).

This letter (see Post No. 9) is NOT about the OP's gun. I'm afraid that someone may read carelessly and jump to that conclusion.. I've been up all night and am very tired and almost made that error.

However, the letter does show that guns with smooth wood and dull black finish were shipping by Jan., 1942. I hadn't thought they went out in that form until April of that year.

Of course, this Midnight Black gun has a four-inch barrel, a conventional US Victory Model.

 

[Absalom]

Absalom, does the Pate book pictured in your post have any information on the Model 1917 Army DA 45’s, and if so, how comprehensive is it?

Yep. Separate chapter, about 20 pages with pics and charts covering both Colt and S&W models. I’m not into these much and thus not familiar with the other available sources, so can’t give you an opinion regarding relative comprehensiveness.

 

[Absalom]

This letter (see Post No. 9) is NOT about the OP's gun. I'm afraid that someone may read carelessly and jump to that conclusion.. .

The fact that the OP’s gun appears NOT to be is precisely my point :)

Generally guns in that serial range should be, which is what makes this gun so interesting. Charlie’s post confirms it.

 

[fiasconva]

Art Doc, do you shoot that +P in your Special Victory Model? I am a little hesitant about shooting it in mine.

 

[Texas Star]

Art Doc, do you shoot that +P in your Special Victory Model? I am a little hesitant about shooting it in mine.

He hasn't replied, so I will. Probably hasn't seen your post.

He and I have had some discussions re the propriety of firing Plus P in a gun that old. Art Doc said he's fired (I think) over 500 rounds of that 125 grain Remington load. No problems.

My concern is that not all Plus P is the same! Underwood and Buffalo Bore load some pretty hot stuff.

I don't know if it'd crack a cylinder but you'd experience wear at an accelerated rate if you fire a lot of Plus P. Cylinder endshake is one obvious symptom.

The USAF adopted a Plus P round for M-15's and shortly encountered a lot of wear, esp. on the range guns that were fired a lot in training. This was a primary reason why they agitated for 9mm pistols, resulting in the adoption of the M-9 Beretta.

 

[fiasconva]

Thanks Texas Star, I'm going to use that old warhorse strictly as a range gun and can see no reason to subject it to those loads. Mine has been fired very little and I'm thinking the 158 grn LRN or even the target loads will do just fine.

 

[chiefdave]

The revolver arrived today. Barrel is 4 15/16", no inspection or military stamps but there is a S after the barrel s/n and a rather large S on the grip frame. Even with all of the finish wear the recoil shield looks like it was fired little if at all. Murphydog is likely right and this was a LE or guard gun. Sending out the letter request tomorrow

 

[Art Doc]

Art Doc, do you shoot that +P in your Special Victory Model? I am a little hesitant about shooting it in mine.

Pictured are 500 rounds of Remington +P and 600 rounds of my own +P+ that was fired in the 1942 revolver that was already well worn to say the least. No effects were noted.

 

[Art Doc]

Thanks Texas Star, I'm going to use that old warhorse strictly as a range gun and can see no reason to subject it to those loads. Mine has been fired very little and I'm thinking the 158 grn LRN or even the target loads will do just fine.

Mainstream +P is a 125 at 925 FPS. To me that's a mild target load. Cases don't even expand and fall out after firing. Sound hot to you?

 

[fiasconva]

Doesn't sound very hot to me but I'm certainly no expert. I was asking the question because of the pic you posted. Mine is a 1941 model that I sorta inherited. Thanks for your reply.

 

[fiasconva]

When my brother bought the Pre-Victory the seller told him it was a former police issue but it isn't marked. With that 5" barrel it very well could have been though.