Are 44 magnum and 45 Colt the only 2 cartridges that have lower pressure load ratings for S&W's as compared to Ruger's and T/C's?? If so, could someone tell me the history as to why this is? TIA..
Todd
Todd
pressure question....
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S&W 25's and 29's will handle all factory ammo in 45 and 44. Ruger Super Redhawks & Super Blackhawks are built like tanks and can hold together during much higher energy Explosions!
The T/C Contenders and Encores are build more like Nitro Express rifles. I have a 44 Mag load from Barns that will shake apart a SBH, but is fine in Contenders and Marlin 336 & Marlin 1894 rifles. I'm not sure anything that could be classified as merely Small Arms Ammunition could hurt an Encore!
Mossberg used to make a 44 Mag single action revolver, it was even stronger than the SBH! My contender's 44 monster load was developed by Frank Barns for hunting Lions with a Mossberg with his 300 grain heavy bullet that had been intended for 444 Marlin in the 1895 Rifle. I believe that one of these would destroy any of my other 44 mag revolvers!
Ivan
The T/C Contenders and Encores are build more like Nitro Express rifles. I have a 44 Mag load from Barns that will shake apart a SBH, but is fine in Contenders and Marlin 336 & Marlin 1894 rifles. I'm not sure anything that could be classified as merely Small Arms Ammunition could hurt an Encore!
Mossberg used to make a 44 Mag single action revolver, it was even stronger than the SBH! My contender's 44 monster load was developed by Frank Barns for hunting Lions with a Mossberg with his 300 grain heavy bullet that had been intended for 444 Marlin in the 1895 Rifle. I believe that one of these would destroy any of my other 44 mag revolvers!
Ivan
Yes SW will handle "factory" loads in 45 Colt an 44 Mag
The SW will NOT handle Ruger only reloads in a 45 Colt. There are 3 tiers of 45 Colt loads involved in RELOADING.
The info is out there.
The SW will NOT handle Ruger only reloads in a 45 Colt. There are 3 tiers of 45 Colt loads involved in RELOADING.
The info is out there.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
S&W revolvers do not require lower pressure ammo, some Ruger revolvers can handle pressures above SAAMI limits.
memtb
Member
Much like different load data, for example....a Trapdoor Springfield 45-70 vs a RUGER # 1 45-70. The Trapdoor was designed for the original 45-70 Govt. and the associated SAAMI spec’s. The newer rifles/handguns can handle higher pressures, through different metallurgy and perhaps chamber wall thickness.
In this case, for the Ruger 44 magnum, it also has a longer cylinder, offering the possibility of heavier (longer) bullets and increased powder capabilities! memtb
In this case, for the Ruger 44 magnum, it also has a longer cylinder, offering the possibility of heavier (longer) bullets and increased powder capabilities! memtb
This answer nails it! Modern guns will handle SAAMI spec ammo. Some SAAMI pressure specs are relatively low in deference to older guns; the 45-70 or 44 Special for example. You're on your own if you decide to exceed SAAMI pressure specs. Not that it can't be done safely, but you're depending on your own smarts and other "experts" to keep you out of trouble. Witness the 44 Special - Elmer Keith was a well known hot-rodder of the round. He got some impressive performance out of it. He also blew up a few guns in the process. Ya makes yer choice and takes yer chances as the saying goes.
Ole Joe Clark
Absent Comrade
The older I get, the more I like the "reduced velocity" loads, of any caliber.
Have a blessed day,
Leon
Have a blessed day,
Leon
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
What does this have to do with the OP and T/C loads?
fredj338
Member
N frames will take full house 44mag just not forever. If you are a 20k rd guy, I would want a ruger over a s&w but even rugers sbh aren't bullet proof when it comes to 1000s of full power loads.
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There are three parts to the answer.
First, an N frame revolver chambered for .44 Magnum has been specially heat treated to withstand the 36,000 psi pressure of full power .44 Magnum loads. That is not the case for an N frame revolver with a fluted cylinder chambered for .45 Colt. The .45 Colt has a SAAMI maximum average pressure of 15,900 CUP and the N frame .45 Colts are not heat treated for 36,000 psi / 40,000 CUP pressures.
Second, SAAMI pressures have backed off a bit in the .44 Magnum from 43,500 CUP to 40,000 CUP, currently measured in PSI at 36,000 PSI.
In comparison the SAAMI .45 Colt pressure is 15,900 CUP / 14,000 psi, much lower than the current .44 Magnum maximum pressure.
Third, there are multiple tiers of .45 Colt ammunition. As noted above, the SAAMI pressure for the .45 Colt is 15,900 CUP / 14,000 PSI.
Generally speaking you'll find handloading data in roughly four tiers:
14,000 psi SAAMI loads;
20,000 psi Non-SAAMI "+P" loads;
23,000 psi loads; "Ruger Only" loads; and
30,000 psi (about 32,000 CUP) .44 Magnum equivalent performance loads.
However, many "cowboy" loads run well under the traditional .45 Colt velocity as the power factor requirement in CASS/SASS is just 60, with a minimum velocity requirement of only 400 fps. A 255 grain bullet at 400 fps has a PF of 102.
That compares to a traditional black powder .45 Colt 255 gr velocity of 875 fps. However, modern smokeless powder 255 gr velocities vary from about 750 fps to 900 fps, as many manufacturers don't load at the SAAMI max.
So at this point you have five separate tiers of .45 Colt ammo and/or load data:
1) much less than 14,000 psi Cowboy loads;
2) up to 14,000 psi SAAMI loads;
3) 20,000 psi Non-SAAMI "+P" loads;
4) 23,000 psi loads; "Ruger Only" loads; and
5) 30,000 psi / 32,000 CUP .44 Magnum equivalent performance loads.
----
Since there are no .45 Colt" +P", "Ruger Only", or "Ruger and T/C Only" standards and Ruger and T/C are not talking much about how much pressure the Blackhawk, Contender and Encore are designed to take, you have to understand that the .45 Colt "+P" and .45 Colt "Ruger and T/C Only" load data varies a lot. You'll find data using those terms that vary from 25,000 CUP to 30,000 CUP (roughly 20,000 psi to 27,500 psi).
23,000 psi is more or less an average for the "Ruger Only" load data, and most folks are very comfortable with that pressure level in a Blackhawk, but be aware some of the "Ruger / TC Only" data runs higher than 23,000 psi and approach it with caution in your Blackhawk.
You'll also find data in the 30,000 psi range that gives terminal performance on par with the 36,000 psi .44 Magnum and you'll find shooters using it in the Ruger Blackhawk. I used to, but it's a bit hard on the revolver as well as your hand.
----
It is vitally important that you understand the huge caution that applies to the 20,000 to 27,500 PSI and in particular the 30,000 psi loads. You need to be very precise and work up very carefully to those loads with NO SUBSTITUTIONS.
For example in Handloader Issue #279 (August, 2012) you'll find a load for a 310 gr Mt. Baldy Keith cast bullet at 1,352 fps in a 7 1/4" barrel intended for "heavy-frame Ruger revolvers and guns of equal strength" generating a pressure of 35,950 psi. I DON'T RECOMMEND IT. In fact, you'll find that data with the same powder charge with 4 different primers showing pressures and velocities ranging from 23,990 psi and 1238 fps to the above mentioned 35,950 and 1352 fps. It's pretty clear the point of this published "load data" was to demonstrate that the primer can make a lot of difference in the pressure of the load. You need to take that to heart with .45 Colt "+P", "Ruger only", "Ruger and T/C only" and 32,000 psi tier loads.
You will also potentially find some data for other firearms in .45 Colt that are far in excess of .44 Magnum pressures. For example, you'll find loads approaching 50,000 psi for the Ruger Redhawk in Handloader Issue #292 (October, 2014). The top load there launches a 335 gr bullet at 1511 fps. Again I don't recommend it in a Redhawk and certainly not in a Blackhawk or in a S&W.
You'll also find load data for the .45 Colt developed for the Winchester and Rossi Model 92 carbines and rifles. The Rossi 92 is, or at least was, chambered in .454 Casull has a SAAMI max of 60,000 psi, although most factory loads are around 55,000 psi max. The Model 92 will contain a .45 Colt load that will blow a Blackhawk apart so keep that in mind when you are looking at load data.
First, an N frame revolver chambered for .44 Magnum has been specially heat treated to withstand the 36,000 psi pressure of full power .44 Magnum loads. That is not the case for an N frame revolver with a fluted cylinder chambered for .45 Colt. The .45 Colt has a SAAMI maximum average pressure of 15,900 CUP and the N frame .45 Colts are not heat treated for 36,000 psi / 40,000 CUP pressures.
Second, SAAMI pressures have backed off a bit in the .44 Magnum from 43,500 CUP to 40,000 CUP, currently measured in PSI at 36,000 PSI.
In comparison the SAAMI .45 Colt pressure is 15,900 CUP / 14,000 psi, much lower than the current .44 Magnum maximum pressure.
Third, there are multiple tiers of .45 Colt ammunition. As noted above, the SAAMI pressure for the .45 Colt is 15,900 CUP / 14,000 PSI.
Generally speaking you'll find handloading data in roughly four tiers:
14,000 psi SAAMI loads;
20,000 psi Non-SAAMI "+P" loads;
23,000 psi loads; "Ruger Only" loads; and
30,000 psi (about 32,000 CUP) .44 Magnum equivalent performance loads.
However, many "cowboy" loads run well under the traditional .45 Colt velocity as the power factor requirement in CASS/SASS is just 60, with a minimum velocity requirement of only 400 fps. A 255 grain bullet at 400 fps has a PF of 102.
That compares to a traditional black powder .45 Colt 255 gr velocity of 875 fps. However, modern smokeless powder 255 gr velocities vary from about 750 fps to 900 fps, as many manufacturers don't load at the SAAMI max.
So at this point you have five separate tiers of .45 Colt ammo and/or load data:
1) much less than 14,000 psi Cowboy loads;
2) up to 14,000 psi SAAMI loads;
3) 20,000 psi Non-SAAMI "+P" loads;
4) 23,000 psi loads; "Ruger Only" loads; and
5) 30,000 psi / 32,000 CUP .44 Magnum equivalent performance loads.
----
Since there are no .45 Colt" +P", "Ruger Only", or "Ruger and T/C Only" standards and Ruger and T/C are not talking much about how much pressure the Blackhawk, Contender and Encore are designed to take, you have to understand that the .45 Colt "+P" and .45 Colt "Ruger and T/C Only" load data varies a lot. You'll find data using those terms that vary from 25,000 CUP to 30,000 CUP (roughly 20,000 psi to 27,500 psi).
23,000 psi is more or less an average for the "Ruger Only" load data, and most folks are very comfortable with that pressure level in a Blackhawk, but be aware some of the "Ruger / TC Only" data runs higher than 23,000 psi and approach it with caution in your Blackhawk.
You'll also find data in the 30,000 psi range that gives terminal performance on par with the 36,000 psi .44 Magnum and you'll find shooters using it in the Ruger Blackhawk. I used to, but it's a bit hard on the revolver as well as your hand.
----
It is vitally important that you understand the huge caution that applies to the 20,000 to 27,500 PSI and in particular the 30,000 psi loads. You need to be very precise and work up very carefully to those loads with NO SUBSTITUTIONS.
For example in Handloader Issue #279 (August, 2012) you'll find a load for a 310 gr Mt. Baldy Keith cast bullet at 1,352 fps in a 7 1/4" barrel intended for "heavy-frame Ruger revolvers and guns of equal strength" generating a pressure of 35,950 psi. I DON'T RECOMMEND IT. In fact, you'll find that data with the same powder charge with 4 different primers showing pressures and velocities ranging from 23,990 psi and 1238 fps to the above mentioned 35,950 and 1352 fps. It's pretty clear the point of this published "load data" was to demonstrate that the primer can make a lot of difference in the pressure of the load. You need to take that to heart with .45 Colt "+P", "Ruger only", "Ruger and T/C only" and 32,000 psi tier loads.
You will also potentially find some data for other firearms in .45 Colt that are far in excess of .44 Magnum pressures. For example, you'll find loads approaching 50,000 psi for the Ruger Redhawk in Handloader Issue #292 (October, 2014). The top load there launches a 335 gr bullet at 1511 fps. Again I don't recommend it in a Redhawk and certainly not in a Blackhawk or in a S&W.
You'll also find load data for the .45 Colt developed for the Winchester and Rossi Model 92 carbines and rifles. The Rossi 92 is, or at least was, chambered in .454 Casull has a SAAMI max of 60,000 psi, although most factory loads are around 55,000 psi max. The Model 92 will contain a .45 Colt load that will blow a Blackhawk apart so keep that in mind when you are looking at load data.
Whether there are more than two cartridges depends of the guns you want to include. There are no Ruger .38 Specials that are not aproved for +P cartridges by Ruger but there are lots of older S&W .38 Specials that are not approved for +P by S&W. If we include S&Ws like the Model 37 then .38 Special is a third cartridge.
Ruger's mid-frame .45 Colt single actions were introduced after reloading manuals published .45 Colt handgun powder charges for Ruger and Thompson Center only. They are not safe with for "Ruger and T/C only" data because of their thin chamber walls.
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OP
Thanks for the answer guys, I do appreciate them. I am involved with helping clear an estate. In that estate are a pile of reloads that the owner used in his mountainous T/C collection. The reloads are just a tad over what are good for S&W's, but are right in the middle of the T/C range. Hate to toss them, and it's not worth pulling the bullets IMO. Good thing I have Marlin 1894's in 38/357, 41, 44 and 45. Time to go and burn a pile of ammo......
Shoot 2,000 full house screaming 125gr .357 Magnum JHP in a Smith & Wesson Model 340PD and 2,000 of them in a Model 28-2 and see who loosens up first.
Has nothing to do with the question or the subject.
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"Ruger" in this case...
....refers only to the Single Action Blackhawk revolvers. There is a special section in my Speer #9 for Blackhawk and TC pistols
....refers only to the Single Action Blackhawk revolvers. There is a special section in my Speer #9 for Blackhawk and TC pistols
Giving up the Ghost
The heel of the thumb of your shooting hand will give up the ghost long before either revolver is loose. I fired about 3,000 full power loads through a Super Blackhawk. At the end, it was traded for a new Redhawk 44 mag. The Blackhawk kept all the holes on the paper, the Redhawk kept all the holes inside the 9 Ring.
I'm sure glad all that ammo has been fired through the 7-1/2" Redhawk or my first 8-3/8" M629.
The heel of the thumb of your shooting hand will give up the ghost long before either revolver is loose. I fired about 3,000 full power loads through a Super Blackhawk. At the end, it was traded for a new Redhawk 44 mag. The Blackhawk kept all the holes on the paper, the Redhawk kept all the holes inside the 9 Ring.
I'm sure glad all that ammo has been fired through the 7-1/2" Redhawk or my first 8-3/8" M629.
Rammer Jammer
Member
The S&W would...next
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Off topic, but I would like to see empirical evidence that S&W uses special, top secret, double probation etc. heat treatment for their 44 Magnum cylinders, but not for those in 45 Colt, 41 Magnum, or any other calibers. Until then, my belief is that all cylinders receive the same, best manufacturing methods available.
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Do you know the qualifications of who reloaded the ammo? Did you watch them being loaded? Are you 100% sure that every round is as stated on the box? Do you have a revolver or rifle that is expendible?
If the answer to any of those questions is no, please do not shoot any of them. I, for one, will never shoot someone else's reloads in my guns. Not that I do not trust the intent of all reloaders, but mistakes do happen, mis-labeling doed happen, double charges do happen. My life and limb and my guns are more valuable to me that a pile of someone else's reloads.
steelslaver
US Veteran
I agree. Having a HT oven and doing HT myself I can't see where you could save any money by not doing a top shelf HT. I ques you could skip a normalization cycle prior to the hardening and temper cycles. But, once you stick a piece in a modern programmable oven it just a punch of the button. I am sure they have a fairly large inert atmosphere oven that could handle thousands of cylinders at one. You could save a little time and electricity. Final machining would be done post HT, and then you would have to take extra steps to track and keep the parts separated and a mistake would be a real liability. There is no way to visually look at a part and know. Even a hardness test would not tell you if a normalization cycle had been done or not. A friend used to run night shift at a place called Stack metallurgy and they had about 6 of them. One of the things they did was all the Leather Man tools.
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Heat treat discussion folks:
I’ve often pondered that modern methods of volume manufacturing would simply streamline the process for throughput, much like you are saying.
With that said...
Wouldn’t it make sense that a standard Model 10, say from the 1990’s forward, perhaps a Model 10-10... would have a cylinder no different than a Model 13 or Model 19? Sure, the cylinder itself would be a shade shorter and the chambers cut for a .38 Special... but would it’s physical make-up (and ability) be any different whatsoever than a 13 or 19 cylinder, spec’d and safe for 35K-psi .357 Magnum?
I’ve often pondered that modern methods of volume manufacturing would simply streamline the process for throughput, much like you are saying.
With that said...
Wouldn’t it make sense that a standard Model 10, say from the 1990’s forward, perhaps a Model 10-10... would have a cylinder no different than a Model 13 or Model 19? Sure, the cylinder itself would be a shade shorter and the chambers cut for a .38 Special... but would it’s physical make-up (and ability) be any different whatsoever than a 13 or 19 cylinder, spec’d and safe for 35K-psi .357 Magnum?
S&W .44 Magnum heat treatment.
This is the first thread in which I've read that cylinders might be heat treated differently. For the reasons just posted I doubt that they are. In years past replies included pictures of the stamp applied to early .44 Magnum frames to indicate they'd been through heat treatment. As I remember, the frames were either heat treated or not. Not heat treating extends the time cutters remain sharp but more importantly eliminates removing the heat treat scale and makes the finish sanding and polishing easier.
Can anyone post a link to a You Tube S&W factory tour video that shows their revolver manufacturing process?
This is the first thread in which I've read that cylinders might be heat treated differently. For the reasons just posted I doubt that they are. In years past replies included pictures of the stamp applied to early .44 Magnum frames to indicate they'd been through heat treatment. As I remember, the frames were either heat treated or not. Not heat treating extends the time cutters remain sharp but more importantly eliminates removing the heat treat scale and makes the finish sanding and polishing easier.
Can anyone post a link to a You Tube S&W factory tour video that shows their revolver manufacturing process?
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^^^ Speculation on S&W's heat treatment processes does arise on this forum from time to time.
No manufacturer is likely to release any kind of such information for many valid reasons.
No manufacturer is likely to release any kind of such information for many valid reasons.
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fredj338
Member
Unkown reloads should just be scrapped for components, regardless of what it says on the box.
fredj338
Member
Shoot 2,000 full house screaming 125gr .357 Magnum JHP in a Smith & Wesson Model 340PD and 2,000 of them in a Model 28-2 and see who loosens up first.
Or even a m19.
38SPL HV
Member
Agree, I wouldn’t shoot reloads of unknown origin. Pull them and reuse the components if possible.
