Price check on Model 19 2 1/2"

[gkitch]

No

You're right, and I do not regret buying the gun......and that's what I was doing, buying the gun, not buying a box! But I do think that if I conclude that this box was substituted and essentially a forgery, I'll have a little chat with the shop people as I think they ought to be aware. The gun would have been worth some $ even without a box, but for someone to scam in order to make a few extra $ is poor.

I bought the gun because I had a blue 2 1/2" 19 which I sold years ago, and a 2 1/2" 66 which I also sold, and I just wanted this gun, it is beautiful and as close to perfect as I have seen and I'm happy to have it. They aren't all that easy to find and when a nice one turns up it doesn't last long.

Please do not lose sight of the actual problem here: You asked us if a LNIB (BOX) gun was worht the asking price. The forum agreed that since it had the BOX and everything it was worth the high$$$, but just barely. You then tried to haggle but the shop did not drop the price because this is a scarce collectors item IN THE ORIGINAL BOX. You paid the COLLECTOR price, since LNI BOX guns like this one do not come up every day.

The correct box was part of the reason you, the forum, and the seller JUSTIFIED the high price.

I now believe the box to be a substituted fake by someone who had a clean sock-drawer M-19 and knew they could get more for it by having a box. The gun without the box is worth no more than $600 tops, with $550 being about right. Clean new labels can be purchased via ebay and all information hand-written to match your serial number. This is a common problem. Whether this box was faked by the shop or by the consignor, we do not know but the shop should have known.
S&W sold blue guns in blue boxes and nickle guns in gray boxes until 1985. This system made organization for distributers and gun shops simple and easy at the time.
I believe the shop owes you at least $100 or they should take back the gun and give you a full refund. Please do not let them treat you like this? If they refuse, we'd all love to know more about them?

 

[Joe in SC]

You'll enjoy that nice little magnum more if you fire it a little from time to time. Having that gun tucked back in the safe would drive me nuts.

The shortest barrel model 19 is a sleeper just like the 2" model 15. Everyone that I have fired was supurbly accurate for a snub. I have a 2 1/2 inch 19 that makes everyone happy that gets to shoot it, including me. Those who haven't fired them can't believe the accuracy until they actually shoot one.

It'll clean up, go ahead and shoot it !

 

[MTKTM]

I've decided to take it back to the shop. They have a policy that all gun sales are final, and I'm sure that's especially true of consignment sales, but under these circumstances I'm thinking they'll deviate from that. I pulled out the S&W Catalog and found where all nickel guns prior to '85 were sold in a grey box, and also that the SN was typically written on (or in?) the bottom in grease-pencil. No such notation in this box. And the more I look at the label, the more new it appears.

I would love to keep the gun, but not at this price. I'm going to ask for my $ back and then offer $500 for the gun without the box. I would not keep the box in any event as I would never want to try to pass it on as NIB, feel that would be deceptive. I wouldn't even want to keep it and try to later sell the gun with full-disclosure because I would not then know what a subsequent purchaser/owner might try to do in order to make a few extra dollars.

I'm fairly certain that the shop didn't "catch" this and is not complicit. I've known these guys for quite a while and don't think they'd do that, but we'll just see how they respond when I drop in there shortly...... Stay tuned.

 

[MTKTM]

Epilogue

I went to the shop and spoke with the owner, he was very decent. He called his consignor and spoke with him at some length, leaving the room while he did. He came back and said he'd write me a check for a full refund. He then asked whether I was interested in buying the gun for $100 off, $580. I told him that I'd give $550 for it, he made another call, and came back saying it was fine. So I am now the happy owner of the 19......sans the box.

I told him that I would buy it for $550 if we destroyed the box. He agreed, so while we stood there he got out a pair of heavy scissors and we cut it up. As I mentioned, I did not want this being used to scam some other gun purchaser down the road.

So.......I now have a very nice nickel 19, like new but no box! For $550. How'd I do???

PS: Thank you all for your assistance here. As I mentioned, I'm not really a collector although I do have the S&W book.....guess I should have studied up before the fact rather than after! But thanks again. I now have a really nice shooter!

 

[18DAI]

I'd say you did fine. Congrats on your 2.5" nickel 19!!

 

[1 old 0311]

This shop won't take a credit card on consignment items, otherwise I would have. But I guess the price was fair. Here are a couple of pics, the lighting wasn't great, but gives an idea. PH 2, yours looks great!

Remember you N-E-V-E-R pay too much for a Smith, sometimes you just buy too soon.

 

[MTKTM]

Remember you N-E-V-E-R pay too much for a Smith, sometimes you just buy too soon.

You're right!!

I have some real mixed feelings about this. I originally bought the gun thinking it to be LNIB. But I soon discovered, thanks to this forum, that while the gun might be nice, the box was wrong and probably a device to jack up the price. So I dealt with all of that and now have the very same gorgeous gun, but no box, for $550 rather than the original price of $680. I now feel like I have "permission" to shoot it, whereas before I was hesitant to do so. It's all good!

 

[gkitch]

Excellent

This worked out great. I'm happy you ending up with the gun at a fair price and equally happy the gunshop did the right thing.

 

[diamonback68]

Now you got the gun at the right price. There's no way the box, papers and tools should jack up the price by $130.

 

[MTKTM]

Now you got the gun at the right price. There's no way the box, papers and tools should jack up the price by $130.

It does not seem like it, but that is often the way it is with collectibles. If they have original packaging they can often be worth not just more, but much much more. I predict that guns in provable "original" boxes or packaging are eventually going to be worth disproportionately more, i.e., a like-new gun without box is worth $500 and the same gun with the original packaging worth $1000. Just wait, watch and see..... It makes little sense, but that's the way true avid collectors (of many things) think.

 

[diamonback68]

I predict that guns in provable "original" boxes or packaging are eventually going to be worth disproportionately more, i.e., a like-new gun without box is worth $500 and the same gun with the original packaging worth $1000. Just wait, watch and see..... It makes little sense, but that's the way true avid collectors (of many things) think.

I disagree. Maybe if you keep a 19-3 unfired, pristine for another 30 or 40 years you may be able to double the value if it has the box and goodies. However; I have seen a very old, highly desireable, very few made RM box bring $4000, but that is the extreme exception.

 

[bettis1]

It does not seem like it, but that is often the way it is with collectibles. If they have original packaging they can often be worth not just more, but much much more. I predict that guns in provable "original" boxes or packaging are eventually going to be worth disproportionately more, i.e., a like-new gun without box is worth $500 and the same gun with the original packaging worth $1000. Just wait, watch and see..... It makes little sense, but that's the way true avid collectors (of many things) think.

I'm glad that the store and the consignor made the adjustment for you. It was certainly appropriate under the circumstances.

I am a little confused by the destruction of the box. Once the box had been removed from your transaction, it was no different than any other box in the store or any other item belonging to that consignor. The box certainly had value, just not as the original shipping container of THAT gun. Apparently, the store owner had the consent of the consignor to destroy it...and you can draw your own conclusions as to whether or not that indicated some complicity on either of their parts.

The original problem discovered in this transaction was not that the gun was sold in the box; it was that it was sold as "new in a box that was its original box".

The packing containers for older, valuable items obviously have a value of their own, even when empty. That is true whether we are talking about the box for a Registered Magnum or an antique child's toy. That is due to that fact that 1) they were made of less sturdy materials and therefore often didn't survive into the present and 2) since their primary purpose was to protect the item until it reached the end user and consequently, the end user generally threw it away. So when the collectible is rarely found in its original container, it is highly valued.

When a box that is correct for the piece (not to be confused with the original box) is found, most collectors like to add it to their collectible item. That DOES NOT mean that it is as valuable as the original box nor should it EVER be passed off as such.

To continue to use the Reg. Mag. example, it is common to attribute the value of an empty blue box as $1000. When a Reg. Mag. is placed in that box it easily raises the value of the package that much or more; even though the number on the bottom does not match that of the gun. If that same box was discovered to have the SAME number as the gun, the value of the package is raised significantly over the individual value of the two items.

In the case of the sale under discussion, even if it had been advertised as in an original box, that would also have been incorrect, just as if a Reg. Mag. had been sold in a blue Outdoorsman box and sold as in "an original box". The value of the destroyed box probably had a value somewhere a little south of $100. But if someone actually had a gun that would have been "correct" in that box they might have paid more for it.

Bob

 

[PH-2]

MT,

Box, schmox, either way is never a deal-breaker for me. You have a very desirable revolver in beautiful condition! Savor the fact that it's yours, Shoot it, or not, I believe owning that nickle 19 snub is (and will continue to be) very satisfying.

Great Score!
Mike

 

[1 old 0311]

Now you got the gun at the right price. There's no way the box, papers and tools should jack up the price by $130.

Saw a Red Box sold on e-bay recently for $600 for the BOX ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rags]

MT,

Box, schmox, either way is never a deal-breaker for me. You have a very desirable revolver in beautiful condition! Savor the fact that it's yours, Shoot it, or not, I believe owning that nickle 19 snub is (and will continue to be) very satisfying.

Great Score!
Mike

I agree. So that's how you spell schmox!!

 

[Sportsterguy]

That box won't be worth a penny to you if you bought it as an investment when you pass. Thats what life insurance is for! Lots of folks drink and smoke that amount of money away in just 6 months or less. Very bad investment.

Have many ANIB revolvers and shoot em all. Just take darn good care of them and they still look great. Best part of owning one is having fun and enjoying them, either alone or with a bud IMO at the range, out in the country or off the back porch if you live in the sticks like me.

I think you still did good on that 19 as it's your money and a sweet revolver. They are still one if not the best revolvers for SD ever made and will never be made the same. Shoot it (my suggestion) or bring it out of the safe once a month for a wipedown and oogle session. Boring. YOUR revolver, YOUR choice. I'd prefer being out shooting it, then oogling over it after a session!

 

[gkitch]

Boxes ARE worth $$

The general rule is the older the gun the more originality is important to value. The older the box that came with the gun, the more that increases value.
Buy a new gun and throw away the box then resell it: the box might have cost a few dollars in difference.
In contrast, a Colt SAA made in 1885 could be really worth TWICE as much with the original shipping box.
How much more would we pay if two identical triple locks were for sale, but one had the original 1907 box with it? LOTS.

 

[diamonback68]

Saw a Red Box sold on e-bay recently for $600 for the BOX ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re-read my post. I was referring to his 19-3 and pricing. With the wrong box, he paid $680, without the box he got just the gun for $550 a difference of $130. That box and accessories was not worth $130. Tells me it was overpriced originally.

 

[gkitch]

Re-read my post. I was referring to his 19-3 and pricing. With the wrong box, he paid $680, without the box he got just the gun for $550 a difference of $130. That box and accessories was not worth $130. Tells me it was overpriced originally.

But the gun with the ORIGINAL BOX was indeed "worth" $130 more (more or less).
Boxes are similar to grips. Original grips are worth more, and the older the gun the more $$ true. Proper grips, appropriate for the era, are not worth quite as much as originals but still add value and many of us seek the proper grips to put on our guns. Pachmyrs reduce the value considerably.

If one is just a shooter, then buy a 90% S&W with Goodyears and no box and enjoy. It will still increase in value as you carry and shoot it, but when it is time to resell please do not expect collector prices. Just the way it is.

 

[gkitch]

true box story

A friend found an empty gun box in his shed (he lives in a historic house) and called me. I took the box and made a couple phone calls, then sent the pics out to an expert. One expert met my friend in Augusta Ga, looked at the box for a few minutes, then paid my friend $4000 in cash for it. The empty old box was a Colt factory box for a pair of 51 Navies and it was in superb condition.

Again, the older the box gets the more its worth. Moreso if it stays with the gun(s) though.

 

[MTKTM]

On the box schmox controversy, here's the way I see it. There were undoubtedly thousands, tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of blue S&W boxes made between 1966 and 1985. These are not Registered Magnum boxes from the 1930s, or old Triple Lock boxes from the 19th Century, and while many were undoubtedly destroyed or thrown out in the trash, huge numbers survived and will likely continue to survive for years to come due to the fact that collectors finally discovered that when with the original gun they have some value and meaning, whereas few people thought in those terms in the 1800s or first half of the 20th Century, thus those real old boxes are truly rare.

So the question in my mind becomes "why would anyone want a basic/generic 1966-1985 S&W box? Is it because the box is so very cool and wonderful? Or is it simply because the box, when connected with a matching gun, has greater value? Yeah, that's it. I also am being told that they make fake S&W boxes in China and sell them on eBay. Hmmmmm, pray tell what the purpose of buying such a box would be?

In my humble opinion, a 1980 S&W box which is not connected to the original gun is worse than worthless, it is a device of greed and deception. Who collects 1980 S&W boxes in their own right? That's what I thought. Nobody does. Their only purpose is to screw someone else out of their money. Stray gunless boxes of recent vintage deserve a trip to the incinerator IMHO.

 

[cupp260]

Congrats on the new S&W!
CC