Problem Paying for simple work

OlTimer

OlTimer

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Called local Gub Smith in NJ most are part time Machinist it seems
I needed 4 holes drilled & tapped that's it in My S&W 22 Revolver to mount a rail for a weaver Mount, Seemed like a nice guy, The Price $90.00 I am a retired GM Millwright my jaw dropped, I will do it myself. but is that normal cost,
My brother in Alaska stated with all the adhesives there are Glue it on, it is nothing new up there to do, the most used ShoeGoo, :D
 
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About $30 a hole seems average around here.
If you've never run a small business and paid your own overhead, insurance, both side of SS and medicare, plus have to eat your own mistakes, consider that you do well to keep .30 out of a gross dollar.
 
I'm happy to hear that you can do it yourself. I can't. Therefore $90 seems like an ok price to me. I understand that you have to pay for skills and expertise that you (I) don't have. I'm not on the east coast so maybe I could get the job done for $60 or $70, but who knows.
 
A friend of mine runs a small shop on Long Island, and I've heard him kvetch about overhead costs. But I've also seen him come up with unit cost breakdown for a bid that might be a single part, or multiples. The greatest cost to him is in setting up the first one.

If that same single 4-hole job came down to your bench at GM, I'm positive that the bill rate would exceed $5000.
I did one-off prototypes at John Deere in 1989, and $5000 was the minimum cost, just to process the paperwork through 27 signatures.

I'd have paid the man.
 
Set up gun in vise with brass or copper jaws. get it level and centered. 20 minutes at least. Lay out and mark 4 holes. Drill hole, tap. move vise or mill table, drill tap. repeat, repeat. clean up. I can see this going well beyond an hour, plus sweating the little drill bits and probably something like a 3-56 tap. Heaven forbid one breaks. Then lots more time effort and sweat not to really make a mess. Plus if one of the holes is over the barrel start with a taper tap then switch to a plug tap. Want to try something fun, mill and install an adjustable rear sight on a fixed sight gun.

Working on guns and similar things isn't like drilling and tapping a regular piece of steel. More concern about messing up the finish, harder than mild steel. Usually very small taps and often blind holes. I do stuff for myself, but if I was doing it for others they would either faint at the price or I would only make $5 an hour.
 
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I might add that you need to figure in the cost of the Bridegport mill or Cincinnati mill, vice, taps, drills, cool tool, and grief (overhead) and experience (yes, amortized over multiple pieces if applicable) and more. You got a fair price. I spent almost two decades in a machine shop, as a machinist, and more time than that working on my own, in my own garage & friends stuff to say that is a fair deal. As a former millwright, you know what is needed to do a job right. Money only buys so much, sir.
 
Guess I am spoiled, Clamp in Vice set the mount in place, transfer hole locations, Center Punch, Drill, Tap, install, Mount. 1/2 hour on my work bench done, I was wrong about 4 holes there were only 3.
 
i used to think the cost of having a plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc come in and do work around the house was expensive, until i did the jobs myself and encountered all kinds of "little" problems and tools needed......i soon realized that hiring a professional was cost effective and got the project finished quickly and done right the first time.....
 
First, the Standard Mouning Pattern on the S&W revolver features 3 holes, NOT 4. Yeah, there is a standard and deviating from this standard means that components designed to fit a newer post 1993 S&W won't fit.

Second, Millwrights deal with honking big screws, I once worked with a millright for GM on layoff and he explained to me how the 12 inch diameter draw rods for securing a press were heated to a specific growth, the nut tightened down with bar stock, and then the cooling draw rod secured the press after it cooled down. The holes for the Standard S&W mounting pattern are a #6-48 thread and it is extremely easy to break off a tap this small if you make any mistake in procedure. Personally I put the mill in neutral and turn the chuck holding the tap by hand and reverse direction every 1/2 turn to break any chips. Because this is a very fine thread and the care required to avoid leaving a broken tap in the hole in the frame it takes me about 1/2 hour per hole to drill, ream, and then tap. Most machine shops today charge between 75 and 100 dollars per hour so 30 bucks per hole is actually a bit of a bargain.

Finally see the attached PDF file, it's a drawing I did of the standard mounting pattern used on S&W revolvers since 1993.
 

Attachments

OlTimer said:
1/2 hour Millwright rate would be a lot less that $90. :)
Click to expand...

You're right, but then again, you didn't have to pay for the building you worked in, including utilities, property tax and upkeep, nor did you have to pay for the machinery you worked on, plus you had a tool crib to get parts and tools from. If you had to pay for all these, you would need more than $180 an hour.

I hope you don't use the same line of thinking when looking for a doctor, especially a specialist.

And I thought only us die makers were cheap. :p :D
 
I am sorry, I know how easy it is to think this will only take me a 1/2 hour, but then an hour or more has passed. I want to see some one do this in 30 minutes. I have a mill with quick change collets, I already have a set of brass plates for my vise jaws, a tap and drill chart, a complete number and letter drill set handy and my taps are in little drawers by size. No way I could do it in 30 minutes from the time I picked up the gun and started. If you are going to hand tap the holes you are a braver man than me. I too, drill then tap each hole while in position using the tap in the chuck and turning it by hand. A small broken tap in a gun is a nightmare. Depending on your vise setup, sometimes just getting the gun secured in the vise level is a pain. They don't have a lot of nice flat surfaces even the frame has the little ring by the yoke hole and the frame lug at rear of cylinder to deal with. Plus, it will take you 5 minutes min, just to remove the cylinder and reinstall. A couple to remove rear sight and store. I take the grips off too.

I did time and cost estimates for work. If a guy is being paid $32 an hour he cost the company closer to $50, then there is overhead cost.

Would I pay $90 for the tapped holes? No, but that is because I have spend thousands on equipment and tools. But, I do know why the guy would want the money and wouldn't knock him for it. I have some guns nobody would pay for if I charge them just $25 an hour for the work I put into them.

Please let us know how long it really takes you. Good luck.
 
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Anywhere close to Boston, the going rate to drill and tap holes is $45 per hole. I think if you go more than an hour drive from the city, then the rate moves down a bit. But for a small job, that could be a lot of driving to save thirty or forty dollars.

At first it seemed like a lot of money to me. But then I realized that if someone is working on my guns, I really want the job done right. And cheap might not turn out to be such a great value.
 
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I'm in the "pay the man" group.

As an aside: our family business was a small machine shop, doing what is now called "job shop" work. We called it "doing whatever came in the door, to make a living.":D

There were two things, though, that we would not work on under any circumstances. Guns and golf clubs. :)

We also said there were two things we couldn't fix: the crack of dawn and a broken heart. :)
 
I just got quoted $1500 to refinish two bathroom counter tops made of Marble! I looked at the guy like he was NUTZ! :eek: :mad: A few estimates after than proved that he was a slight bit high but in the Ballpark. I guess the price of specialty work is getting moe expensive as the amount of people who perform it are dwindling.

When it comes to 95% of the repair work or remodling around the house I do it myself as I enjoy it. I also save tons of $$ so when it comes to a job like refinishing Marble (yes I can do it myself, but choose not too as it is a very messy, dusty, and tedious job) I will hire a contractor, pay the piper and cry in my beer. I can use the money I saved doing other jobs to pay him.

$90 bucks is a lot for a few holes but what if he screws it up, scratches you gun, or ruins something in the process - would it be worth him having to buy you a new gun for the reward of $30 bucks?? The risk has to be worth the reward I suppose.

Aside from which - - - $90 bucks "aint what it used to be". :o
 
We had a hard time trying to explain hourly Gunsmithing charges when our shop first opened.
Then, suddenly the light came on!
We placed a sign up that said our labor rate was the same as the local car dealers.
Raised our charge per hour to theirs, complaints ceased.
By the way, Chevrolet an Mercedes were same rate.
 
You can do it your self and end up with a post like mine.How Do i plug these holes. I needed 10 holes drilled and tapped. Was quoted $45 a hole. Now that is $450 to put on a $100 scope mount on a 1911. I even bought a drill plate with the mount and clamped it on got everything right, I thought, and the 10 holes drilled and tapped as easy as pie. Well the back end of the mount is 0.104" higher then the front. Live and learn.
 
Labor rates in most any skilled trade are above $50 p/hr and most above $60. When you figure all the overhead just to open the doors on a gunsmithing shop that price is very reasonable. The only local gunsmith we have is just starting out, and doesn't have mills & lathes yet, but his rate is $65 p/hr for the work he can do.
 
I can understand your shock. Last year I needed some work performed on a new Remington 700 Long Range rifle. Specifically, I needed the receiver drilled and tapped for a Redfield target base. Unfortunately, the 'smith that I have used forever passed in '07. I was referred to a reputable shop up in the Poconos, and they were willing to do the work, same day. I drove almost 3 hours, one way to the shop. When the owner saw what I wanted to do, he recommended that I relieve the barrel near the muzzle to retain the front sight base, which I went along with. The total work performed included:
- pulling the barrel, machining the barrel groove, replacing barrel,
- drill and tap 2 holes in receiver, and mount base,
- relieve the Kevlar stock where the sight base would interfere with the stock,
- trim the protruding X-Mark Pro adjustment screw.

The total cost was about $130, and about 2-3 hours in his retail shop. Basically, it was a day well spent.

Sadly, 3 weeks later I discovered that I was not having problems with my ammo sticking in the action due to high pressure, but because of an extremely rough chamber that slipped past Remington's QC. I made the trip to the Poconos again, with prior arrangements, and they polished the chamber, and I think that the cost was not quite $50.

I am not identifying the shop at the moment, because I don't want to risk violating any forum rules. However, if you PM me, I will share the shop name and location.
 
$90 probably breaks down as follows...

- Measuring and transferring hole locations = 1 hour
- Setting up work on drill press (or more likely, vertical mill) = 1 hour
- Drilling and tapping = 10 minutes
- Knowing how and where to drill and tap = priceless

At a reasonable charge-out rate of $75/hour, you are getting a bargain. The know-how is a gift.
 
I'm a (16 years) retired Machinist, Tool & Die Maker, CAD/CAM Operator, CNC Programmer/Operator, CMM Operator so I have an idea of what's involved in the OP's task and can somewhat sympathize with him.

The first few years of my retirement I was allowed to go back and use the machines for farm equipment, gun, and motorcycle machining projects but policy changed and that came to an end. I actually toyed with the idea of buying a mill and lathe to handle my farm equipment, gun, and motorcycle machining needs and even went to a few auctions but reality set in and I just couldn't justify the expense for no more than I would actually use them.
I do have friends who own machine shops so if I really needed anything I could avail myself of their equipment.

It is somewhat distressing to get these quotes when we know we can do it ourselves but as has been mentioned several times those shops are in BUSINESS to earn a profit. While $90 may seem stiff to those of us who have the skills to do such a simple task the reality is that it's no doubt worth every penny to a business to take on such a small simple job.

It was mentioned about installing adjustable sights on a fixed sight handgun.
Back when I was working a local gun store asked me to do some machine work on 1911s for his customers that he wasn't able to do.
I made a fixture for the slide and bought all the (carbide) endmills, drills, taps, and dovetail cutters to do BoMar rears and Chip McCormich fronts.
It was a time consuming and very stressful task.
I did a number of them for him and don't recall how much I charged but knowing me it wasn't near enough.
I did the sights on my Stainless Delta Elite as well as other modifications and it was my EDC for years.


I guess to me the bottom line to me is that quality machine work is worth every penny if you don't have the skills and resources to do it yourself.

On an aside B-Square used to make a base for the older S&W revolvers that used the front sight screw and locked into the rear notch. I've used one with a 4X scope for checking loads on everything from a 617 to a 629 with no problems. On one of my 625s that had the three screws drilled I also have a B-Square for it.

James
 
Forget machine work, it's a min of $75 and more like $100 to get anyone to do anything in my neck of the woods. This is how it is now that everyones lives are full of expensive accessories.
 
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I quit in 92, at that time I was charging $20 a hole D&T for most
guns. I had major bucks tied up in jigs and fixtures. I did a lot
of Shotguns, Muzzle loaders and handguns. They weren't to bad
some of the 98s were hard as glass. What was really a PIA is
when Bubba took his gun down to the corner gas station and
attempted to D/T gun with a drill press that would stir paint with
a 3/4" bit. Then usually snapped off a tap. My favorite were the
guys who D/T a rear sight on shotguns. Even if they got it done
the Chamber pressure would blow the sight off after a few shots.
A guy brought in a 870 Rem that looked like a flute, before he
gave up. People don't realize what tooling cost, they should spend
a little time and leaf through Brownells catalog. Back when I bought mine they cost less, but a dollar was worth a lot more.
Several times after giving people cost upfront, they would go
nuts when it came time to pay. I've even had people tell me to
keep it and stick it, and walk out.
 
Neumann said:
$90 probably breaks down as follows...

- Measuring and transferring hole locations = 1 hour
- Setting up work on drill press (or more likely, vertical mill) = 1 hour
- Drilling and tapping = 10 minutes
- Knowing how and where to drill and tap = priceless

At a reasonable charge-out rate of $75/hour, you are getting a bargain. The know-how is a gift.
Click to expand...

Place Weaver Rail in place drill mark holes 6 Minutes
Drill 7 Minutes
Tap 11 Minutes
Place Rail install Screws 4 Minutes
My gift was coming from a Family of skilled tradesman working in an environment at GM with Mach, Tool Die, and many other skilled tradesmen, even The Last GM Black Smith, have the tools needed, The point I was trying to Make was the cost to do such a Simple task that i never gave a thought to doing.
I was not making light of what others find hard to do.

There is one thing I try not to do is wash or work on my Cars
 
Marking holes with a center punch is slap-dab work, IMO. For precision work I would line everything up and use the indexing table. Perhaps that's why I bought my last GM car 20 years ago. Too much use of drift punches for my taste.
 
Yep, sorry, what Neumann said. I'll never go back to that slap-dab work.
I'm sure the 6-48 is just as amenable to a center punch as something on a Chebby Silverado.
 
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