Project 457DAO

[GaryS]

Let me start by thanking JohnHL for his advice and suggestions. If this project works out, he deserves significant credit. If it doesn't work out, it's because the guy doing the work his ham fisted.

A few weeks ago, I read a couple of threads about the various DAO 3rd Gen guns. As we know, the 3914DAO has "double strike" capability and was specifically designed that way for the NYPD. At some point, I asked how hard would it be to convert a 3914 to DAO.

JohnHL answered and told me that it was a matter of filing the Single Action notch off of the hammer and getting a firing pin retainer from a later 39/40 TSW, although the safety/decocker could be retained.

I didn't have the courage to modify my 3914NL, plus firing pin retainers are hard to find and expensive.

I also have two 457s, so I decided to take the older one and see if I could pull the modification off.

At Numrich, I found a firing pin retainer for a 4586 for about $22.00. I also ordered new firing pin and main springs.

I bought a pile of used parts on Ebay, which included a hammer and sear. Also included was a main spring cup, more on that later.

When the trigger arrived, I set to work removing the SA notch. Much hand filing was done over a period of days. I avoided the temptation to use a Dremel tool. Whenever my eyes cast longing glances in that direction, I put down the file and took a break.

Once I got the notch removed, I smoothed the area with a Scotch Brite ultrafine (maroon) pad until it was smooth as silk.

Here is a before,

and after

picture. I apologize for the quality of the pictures. I meant to take more, but forgot, and now that everything is back together, I'm NOT taking it apart again.

I then turned my attention to fitting the firing pin retainer. A bit of filing was needed, but the part fit fine.

I reassembled the slide with no problem, then took a few days off from the project.

Friday night I had nothing much to do and decided to "look at" how much was needed to swap the hammer. One thing lead to another and before I knew it, I had the grips off, hammer out, along with the firing pin spacer, ejector, sear, and other parts out.

I've viewed the assembly/disassembly videos on YouTube a number of times and it didn't look too hard. As the man in the video says, the hardest part is keeping all of the parts lined up.

He ain't lyin'.

I lost count of the number of times I had the ejector, firing pin safety, hammer, and sear release lined up with a pin punch through the hole to keep them in place. That wasn't too hard, the hard part was not letting the pin punch fall out while trying to get the disconnector and sear into place. At which point, I'd lose my grasp on pin punch and all of the other parts would fall out.

I finally got those parts in place, and then spent another half hour getting the sear in place and held in by yet another pin punch.

This is where having four hands would have come in handy.

I finally got everything back in place, put the main spring and plunger placed into the Hogue main spring cup and got that in place. Now, to put in the grip pin.

This is where having six hands would come in handy. The Hogue piece came loose, the plunger and spring followed it and they all went into orbit.

At which point, the pin punch fell out and the hammer, sear release, ejector, and firing pin safety fell out. Again.

Sigh.

After finding the new main spring, and assembling that with the other main spring plunger and a spare Hogue piece I happened to have, I started again.

Finally, I got everything in place and put the sear pin and sideplate back on, followed by the grips.

Viola!


I've dry fired this a few times and there are no bad sounds from inside or weird sensations. The trigger action is smooth and it has double strike.

It's supposed to warm up later this week and I'll make an attempt to get to the range to see if and how it shoots.

I've retained the original trigger and sear and will be able to restore the gun to original condition if needed.

I still have to figure out what to do about matching the stainless firing pin retainer to the slide. There are a few ways to do it, but I'm looking for one that won't cost as much as the gun did.

I'm relatively sure that the people who built these guns at the factory had training, techniques, and tools to make it much easier than it was for me. The YouTube videos are helpful, but it takes a lot of dexterity to put the parts of the frame in properly. JohnHL is convinced that it requires people with finger joints that move in directions not normal for humans.

My thought is that there were several young children with small, but strong fingers, involved.

It can't be too hard, because I've been casting and eye towards a LGS that has a very clean 3914 and searching for a firing pin retainer.

OTOH, I have a very nice 3913 ...

 

[1775usmarine]

I like the look.

 

[GaryS]

An additional note. Yesterday I decided to clean up the shelf area where the main spring landed. I found the Hogue piece, but the main spring plunger is still in the wild.

I also found an amateur antenna I forgot I had, several nuts, screws, and other hardware that fell behind the shelf.

No sign of Jimmy Hoffa, but that wouldn't have surprised me either.

 

[18DAI]

Nice job! Glad that there are "..no bad sounds from inside..."

I look forward to your test firing and range report. Regards 18DAI

 

[GaryS]

Crunchy sounds wouldn't be a good sign, not good at all!

Nice job! Glad that there are "..no bad sounds from inside..."

I look forward to your test firing and range report. Regards 18DAI

 

[JohnHL]

Nice work, Gary!

Reassembling the rear frame fire control parts is definitely a challenge to the dexterity.
I've seen videos and heard tales of armorers who deftly assemble these things freehand, on the bench with nothing more than a couple of pin punches.

My hat is off to them.

To make it easier on myself, this is the procedure I use:

When disassembling, I push the sideplate and sear pivot pin out together.
I do this while holding the frame over a parts pan in the middle of the bench top, nowhere near an edge, and let the parts fall into the pan.

Upon reassembly, after installing the trigger and drawbar, I mount the frame in the jaws of a padded vice.

This is the trick that makes it much easier for me:

I use the pivot pin from an old double stack sideplate and a spare sear pivot pin.
These are my slave pins. (The double stack parts are the longest and can be used to reassemble all of the models. The respective pin diameters are the same for all models also.)

I begin by installing the firing pin safety lever and spring, sear release lever, hammer, and then ejector and spring, proceeding from right to left.
The sideplate pivot pin holds all the parts in place and I don't have to worry about an ill-fitting punch falling out.

I then remove the frame from the vise, turn it over, and install the disconnector.
Back in the vise and I hold the sear in place with one hand while pushing the sear pivot slave pin through with the other.

At this point, all the little bits are back where they should be in their proper orientation.

Now it is a simple matter to push the sideplate and sear pivot pin (clipped together as a unit) through from the left side pushing the slave pins out the right side.

This may not be the fastest way and I'll probably never beat the flat-rate (you techs understand this part), but it is easier for me, saves a lot of cursing, only needs two hands, and doesn't require too much unnatural bending of the finger joints.

John

 

[GaryS]

Great suggestions, thank you!

I'd never have thought of using the double stack parts, that's a great idea. I have a bench vise, but never thought of using that as an extra pair of hands either.

I'm going to copy and paste this into a text document for future reference.

Nice work, Gary!

Reassembling the rear frame fire control parts is definitely a challenge to the dexterity.
I've seen videos and heard tales of armorers who deftly assemble these things freehand, on the bench with nothing more than a couple of pin punches.

My hat is off to them.

To make it easier on myself, this is the procedure I use:

When disassembling, I push the sideplate and sear pivot pin out together.
I do this while holding the frame over a parts pan in the middle of the bench top, nowhere near an edge, and let the parts fall into the pan.

Upon reassembly, after installing the trigger and drawbar, I mount the frame in the jaws of a padded vice.

This is the trick that makes it much easier for me:

I use the pivot pin from an old double stack sideplate and a spare sear pivot pin.
These are my slave pins. (The double stack parts are the longest and can be used to reassemble all of the models. The respective pin diameters are the same for all models also.)

I begin by installing the firing pin safety lever and spring, sear release lever, hammer, and then ejector and spring, proceeding from right to left.
The sideplate pivot pin holds all the parts in place and I don't have to worry about an ill-fitting punch falling out.

I then remove the frame from the vise, turn it over, and install the disconnector.
Back in the vise and I hold the sear in place with one hand while pushing the sear pivot slave pin through with the other.

At this point, all the little bits are back where they should be in their proper orientation.

Now it is a simple matter to push the sideplate and sear pivot pin (clipped together as a unit) through from the left side pushing the slave pins out the right side.

This may not be the fastest way and I'll probably never beat the flat-rate (you techs understand this part), but it is easier for me, saves a lot of cursing, only needs two hands, and doesn't require too much unnatural bending of the finger joints.

John

 

[TercGen]

Nice project Gary, sounds like things turned out OK and you have a cool NY DAO 457. How many folks can say that?

With reassembly of the small parts on the frame, I have found Fastbolt's method of removing/installing the sideplate assembly and sear pin separately to be much easier (and less prone to bending the sideplate assy).

Start by popping the sear pin out of the legs of the sideplate assy with a small plastic hammer, then pushing the sideplate out with the frame upside-down over a small dish to catch all the levers and springs. Depending on how far I'm breaking it down, I'll often leave the sear and pin in place (and if I'm fitting a new sear release lever, I'll just slide the sideplate assy out far enough to remove that lever and the firing pin safety lever).

With reassembly, I put the disconnector in after the drawbar, then the sear & sear pin, and then the 2 springs on top. Making sure the sear is held upright, I line up the disconnector/depressor lever and shimmy the sideplate assy through. Then I draw it back just far enough to get the hammer in, skewer that in place with the sideplate, then the sear release and firing pin safety levers. With all that in place, draw out the sideplate assy just enough to go over the sear pin head, then with the frame on a solid flat surface (plastic cutting board), press the sideplate legs over the sear pin head with a flat piece of wood until they snap into the grooves. Sometimes it's necessary to hold your thumbnail over the legs and give the sear pin a little push with a punch from the other side to fully seat the legs in the pin grooves.

This method has become second nature to me, but whichever way you do it, things will become much easier with practice. Fitting a new sear release lever is a great way to get familiar with this process.

 

[JohnHL]

Thanks, Gary!

All this talk about homemade DAOs combined with the first sunny day up here on the ridge, convinced me to pull out my favorite home built DAO, the CS40/45.

As usual, she didn't disappoint.
She wore both hats (slides) with aplomb and delivered 40 and 45 rounds with equal dependability.

So, thanks again for the excuse for some (DAO) trigger time!

John

 

[GaryS]

I think any method will work, but they all require some practice. I don't expect to take any more down that far in the near future unless something breaks in one of them.

I do appreciate any comments and suggestions from everyone who has done more of this than I have. Which is just about everyone!

Nice project Gary, sounds like things turned out OK and you have a cool NY DAO 457. How many folks can say that?

I probably could have got away without changing the sear, but since I had bought them as a set, it made sense to change both. (Another thanks to JohnHL)

With reassembly of the small parts on the frame, I have found Fastbolt's method of removing/installing the sideplate assembly and sear pin separately to be much easier (and less prone to bending the sideplate assy).

Start by popping the sear pin out of the legs of the sideplate assy with a small plastic hammer, then pushing the sideplate out with the frame upside-down over a small dish to catch all the levers and springs. Depending on how far I'm breaking it down, I'll often leave the sear and pin in place (and if I'm fitting a new sear release lever, I'll just slide the sideplate assy out far enough to remove that lever and the firing pin safety lever).

With reassembly, I put the disconnector in after the drawbar, then the sear & sear pin, and then the 2 springs on top. Making sure the sear is held upright, I line up the disconnector/depressor lever and shimmy the sideplate assy through. Then I draw it back just far enough to get the hammer in, skewer that in place with the sideplate, then the sear release and firing pin safety levers. With all that in place, draw out the sideplate assy just enough to go over the sear pin head, then with the frame on a solid flat surface (plastic cutting board), press the sideplate legs over the sear pin head with a flat piece of wood until they snap into the grooves. Sometimes it's necessary to hold your thumbnail over the legs and give the sear pin a little push with a punch from the other side to fully seat the legs in the pin grooves.

This method has become second nature to me, but whichever way you do it, things will become much easier with practice. Fitting a new sear release lever is a great way to get familiar with this process.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Now, to put in the grip pin.

This is where having six hands would come in handy. The Hogue piece came loose, the plunger and spring followed it and they all went into orbit.

At which point, the pin punch fell out and the hammer, sear release, ejector, and firing pin safety fell out. Again.

.

Nice project. Congrats on taking the big plunge & being successful !

Those Hogue mainspring retainers can be difficult, especially on initial installation. Sometimes a little plastic needs to be filed off the ridge on it's back (where it contacts the frame), because it sticks out too much, to better align the hole for it's pin.

Still, most of the time it's a tight fit. I use the center punch from the punch set, which has a pointed nose & is of similar diameter, to tap it in from the right side past the mainspring cup's nose.

Leaving the center punch in place (it's firmly in place) I carefully tap the mainspring's retainer pin (lightly greased) in from the left side letting it push the center punch out. This seems to take some of the aggravation out of what otherwise should be a simple procedure.

.

 

[1775usmarine]

This makes me want to do a SSV build with a 5906 frame I've been eye balling online.

 

[GaryS]

Of course I have a set of center punches on my bench, but didn't think of using one.

All good ideas, thanks everyone.

.

Nice project. Congrats on taking the big plunge & being successful !

Those Hogue mainspring retainers can be difficult, especially on initial installation. Sometimes a little plastic needs to be filed off the ridge on it's back (where it contacts the frame), because it sticks out too much, to better align the hole for it's pin.

Still, most of the time it's a tight fit. I use the center punch from the punch set, which has a pointed nose & is of similar diameter, to tap it in from the right side past the mainspring cup's nose.

Leaving the center punch in place (it's firmly in place) I carefully tap the mainspring's retainer pin (lightly greased) in from the left side letting it push the center punch out. This seems to take some of the aggravation out of what otherwise should be a simple procedure.

.

 

[GaryS]

Project 457DAO - To the range

I took advantage of the beautiful weather up here in the Northeast and took both of my 457s to the range.

Ammunition was WWB 230gr FMJ.

First up was the 457DAO. I started out with one round for a function check. Long, but smooth trigger pull. Case ejected, slide locked back.

The next magazine had two rounds. Pretty much the same as the single round. Then three rounds and all was well.

I then proceeded to fire the remainder of the 50 rounds per usual. The trigger and action remained smooth and consistent. Recoil was what I expect from a 457.

Results here,

It took a few rounds, as you can see, to get used to the DAO trigger. Just a reminder that I need to get to the range more often, I guess. I also need to work on my sight picture, stance, and grip. All the normal things that need to be worked on with practice.

The grouping wasn't quite as good as I'd like, but still acceptable. B27 reduced size target at 21 feet.

Then, on to the TDA version.

Again, trigger action is smooth, but I noticed something odd. My trigger pull is better in DA than in SA. For some reason, I tend to pull down (flinch) in SA when I don't in DA.

That aside, the gun also seems to shoot low and to my left. Part of that is the flinch, which I just need to work on. Part of it is, I don't know what. More range time is in order.

Grouping is consistent, as you can see. Once I fix the flinch and get more centerline, I'll be happier.

This grouping wouldn't exactly do the target's liver any good, but it's not where I think it should be. I blame the guy behind the sights, not the gun.

Anyway, I think the project is successful.

 

[JohnHL]

Anyway, I think the project is successful.

You have a penchant for understatement, Gary.

I'd say you've done a very fine job!

And now you have something hardly anyone else has and can return it to original condition at will.

If you want to slim it down a little more, file a couple steps off the slide release lever and swap those Hogues for some Delrins.

Nice shooting!

Any one of those shots looked like a real bad day for an assailant (much less any two or more shots).

I get what you mean about sometimes shooting better in double action.
My guess is, shooting in double action helps me to avoid anticipating the shot because I'm less certain of when the hammer is going to drop.

Nice work and have fun with it.
You two may be spending a lot more time together.

John

 

[GaryS]

Thanks. Again, I give much of the credit to you for giving my some great advice.

I think you're right about DA vs SA shooting. It's much harder to anticipate hammer fall on the DA shots. Which is probably why they group better.

I'm a bit concerned about the shot placement of the regular 457. Later today I'm going to get side by side shots of the slide to compare rear sight position. I'll have more on that later.

I thought briefly about swapping barrels between the two, but as the barrel lugs and frames are worn in together (more the frames), I don't know if that's a good idea.

I guess I'll just have to shoot more often. Tough work, but someone has to do it.

You have a penchant for understatement, Gary.

I'd say you've done a very fine job!

And now you have something hardly anyone else has and can return it to original condition at will.

If you want to slim it down a little more, file a couple steps off the slide release lever and swap those Hogues for some Delrins.

Nice shooting!

Any one of those shots looked like a real bad day for an assailant (much less any two or more shots).

I get what you mean about sometimes shooting better in double action.
My guess is, shooting in double action helps me to avoid anticipating the shot because I'm less certain of when the hammer is going to drop.

Nice work and have fun with it.
You two may be spending a lot more time together.

John