Project 616

[Hondo44]

Well Froggie I think I've paced almost as much as you waiting. But to see your vision in 3D makes it all worth while. A great idea and bunch of parts really came together well. You look like one happy soul in that photo!

 

[BUFF]

That is really a tremendous revolver, but does Horvath Custom pay you a royalty for his advertising stamped into the side of your gun?

I think it is going to have been well worth your wait.

 

[Green Frog]

That is really a tremendous revolver, but does Horvath Custom pay you a royalty for his advertising stamped into the side of your gun?

I think it is going to have been well worth your wait.

Royalty payment would be nice, but after all the fine work he did on it, I think a little tooting of his own horn is in order as well. I know I will happily recommend his work to anyone having similar ambitions on a build. While there are a couple of revolver smiths out there who are better known or have bigger reputations, you would have to look pretty hard to find someone doing any better work. Also, as Dale53 observed when he first saw it, "That definitely establishes provenance for the who built it." I like that too! I hope I can get out to my home range Wednesday (if the blizzard subsides... I had to cut my OH trip a day short ) and do some more shooting. I still don't know it's full potential yet, and I'll be trying to see which combination of powder (and charge) and bullet weight it likes best. Of course since it is a freshly rebored barrel, there will probably be some settling in, but since I'll be shooting mostly lead bullets it should go pretty quickly, I hope. Life is good!

Froggie

 

[Dale53]

Hey Froggie, I was searching the net for a single shot gunsmith and there was a green frog into Ruger single shots. Is that you? The nice thing abt the B-square mount is that you can put it on and try ammo to see which shoots better in each gun. Then remove the mount and try to use iron sights. Dale, don't you have the nice shooting 625's? Larry

Larry;
Guilty as charged. The 625's are my most shot revolvers. However, the 16-4 Smith generally goes along for the ride to the range for a bit of "light" practice. It is a superb revolver and it is a shame that they are no longer available.

Back on topic:
Froggie's "616" is about the "perfect packin' pistol" (thanks, John) given it's size, weight, and stainless finish for the field coupled with it's caliber. When Froggie ventures to the field next fall, I suspect it'll be hanging from his belt.

Dale53

 

[Jebus35745]

Single meaning no wife, wow. I'd be at every gun show, abt one each weekend. Home range, we could use some pics of it. I like single shot rifles, SXS shotguns and S&W's. Kinda old fashioned I guess. Larry

 

[Frank46]

Froggie, remember no breech seating on this one. All goofs aside the smile on your face seems to me that you are one extremely happy camper. Beautiful handgun and in a great caliber. Hope you both spend many happy times together. Frank

 

[Tony M.]

Great Job on this one. For years I've wanted exactly what you've created here.

 

[ddixie884]

I have posted in this thread, but haven't said how very impressed I am with your project. Mr. Horvath did you a great job, CONGRATS!

 

[Maximumbob54]

That was a grand adventure to read from the start to the end so far. Froggie, I hope you can share some of that load data once you get it worked up. I don't have the bones to build such a micro beast but that is exactly what I wish S&W would have / could still do with the .327 magnum. I would also like to see Federal or any other ammo manufacturer come up with some heavy bullet loads as well just to get more interest in it as a field gun. I still want to see a more practical cost J frame but that's just the K frame that S&W could still make.

 

[Jebus35745]

Hey Froggie, did you ever mount a scope on it to bee the accuracy it has. Larry

 

[Green Frog]

Thanks for the kudos, guys. I mentioned this on the other post just to let folks know that it is, indeed a possibility, not just a pipe dream. While I don't want to discourage anyone, there is one necessary item for the project that seems to be drying up... the S&W Model 617 cylinder. If I had it to do over again, I would probably have to plan on using one of the replacement cylinder blanks that Hamilton Bowen is now making for the K-frame (stainless or carbon steel listed as available.) Although the cylinder and extractor blank initially cost over twice as much as I paid for my factory unit, you will realize some significant savings on labor as Andy had to rework the 617 extractor more than either of us had planned. Other than that, the rest of the project should be as do-able for you as it was for me, and I stand by my contention that it is a viable and practical gun and cartridge combo and that it really is "the gun S&W should have built but didn't." I don't know what the market would be, what with the "black plastic gun" craze on the one hand and the snobbery (of which I am part) against MIM and IL variants, but I honestly think a new model would sell. Maybe if they could find a few hundred left over, non-IL frames and make a matching run of barrels and cylinders for them...

Larry, I decided that I would hold off on scoping the 616 until I had spent more time with the scope on my R-word Blackhawk 327. It has a slightly longer barrel and is of course somewhat heavier already, so I look at that as my "test mule" and the 616 as my "thoroughbred." I can still do 327 FM load development and testing in the RBH and then just fine tune the results as they will apply to the Smith. I guess even if I do scope the 616 for a while, it is destined to be "old school" and go with irons like a casual wood loafing gun should. BTW Larry, are you still enjoying that Model 16 repro you had Andy do for you? I hope you are having time to shoot it as much as it deserves... I know my Summer has been a little crazy and I'm waiting for Fall to get back into some serious quality time at the range.

Regards,
Froggie

 

[peyton]

I am glad you did the legwork for all of us. I got a model 66 sitting in the safe, plus a model 16-4 cylinder in the drawer. The question I have is would a 617 barrel and the 16-4 cylinder work using the model 66 frame? So my thinking it would become a "Pinto"??

 

[Green Frog]

The answer to your question, Peyton, is yes. It will be a sort of semi-pinto or you could have the 16-4 cylinder plated with a brushed hard chrome to sort of look like the rest of the gun. Another possibility would be to get your cylinder from H Bowen. You could probably get a good portion of the price you will be paying for that out of your 16-4 cylinder.

 

[Jebus35745]

The scope on the 616 would only be put on long enough to see just how good it shoots. I scoped mine for only one range session, then it got the irons put back on. How accurate it the RBH? Had my 32 for a year now and only shot it 3-4 times. Shot a double action league for 8 weeks and didn't use the 32, not sure if it was sighted in or not. Having Carpal Tunnel done to both hands, last one done Friday and will shoot more after I heal. Bought a 32 PPC bbl and have another worn K-22 and the wheels are turning. Not sure I want to spend the money. Life is good, Larry

 

[M29since14]

...If I had it to do over again, I would probably have to plan on using one of the replacement cylinder blanks that Hamilton Bowen is now making for the K-frame (stainless or carbon steel listed as available.)

It may be expensive but it would give you the additional benefit of being a magnum-length part. The K22 cylinder is somewhat shorter. Hamilton Bowen is no fool. He was wise enough make the custom cylinders the same length as the original rimfire cylinders for the .22 Jet so he could whip up a .22LR cylinder for your Jet if you need one. I think the extra length would be a good thing on a .327, particularly for handling long, heavy bullets.

 

[Green Frog]

It may be expensive but it would give you the additional benefit of being a magnum-length part. The K22 cylinder is somewhat shorter. Hamilton Bowen is no fool. He was wise enough make the custom cylinders the same length as the original rimfire cylinders for the .22 Jet so he could whip up a .22LR cylinder for your Jet if you need one. I think the extra length would be a good thing on a .327, particularly for handling long, heavy bullets.

I'm currently using the NOE 125 grain copy of Ideal's old 3118 seated long in 327 FM brass from Starline. It comes to within less than 1/8" of the mouth of my reworked 617 cylinder. Just a FYI.

Froggie

 

[AKAOV1MAN]

I was lucky enough to get a 16-2 with a factory fitted 32-20 cylinder, my only problem is whether to try to find another cylinder to ream to .327 or do it to the 32-20 cylinder. I have the .32 Mag bug and I have a few, including the kit gun 4" that they only made 89 of. I use Buffalo Bore ammo for serious stuff in all of them including the airweight J frames. I feel that that ammo is pretty much the maximum for those guns. I also bought a Charter Arms in .327 and lucked out as it is perfect, also got the Ruger 101 in 3", also a great defense gun in .327.
BTW, while looking for the Charter Arms, I found the Pit Bull model in .40 S&W, grabbed it for grins and it too turned out to be just about perfect, uses an ejection system a little like the Smith 547, but it works better! It is going to be assigned duty as my BUG when I carry a .40 semi auto, I can thumb rounds into it right out of the semi auto magazine.

 

[Green Frog]

Simple answer; I would look for an old blued K-22/Model 17, 18 or 48 cylinder assembly -usually around $100-150 or so - making sure it was a 6 shot version with the classic round extractor star, and send it to one of the several fine gunsmiths who do this work (as Andy Horvath did for me) and have it rebored to 32 cal and chambered to 32 H&R or 327 FM and be good to go. With the older K-32 you have, I would probably stick with the H&R semi-magnum rather than go to the much higher pressure of the FM. BTW, you can't simply rebore the 32-20 cylinder to 327 since the base diameter of the 32-20 case is significantly larger. Besides, the 32-20 is too cool to give up!

Drop me a PM if you would like to discuss it further.

Froggie

 

[Green Frog]

It's hard to believe this thread started two and a half years ago and that I've had the completed gun in hand for almost two years. Each time a related topic comes up, this one seems to get resurrected in one way or another, and without fail I get notification of at least one or two new "Likes." I still can't help but believe this would be a winner of a short run project for S&W, but still hold forth little or no hope that they will ever attempt it. More's the pretty, but I'm feeling just that much better about going on and building my own instead of waiting.

As for 327 loads, I'm finding that the factory load of choice is the Federal Premium Gold Dot that is a half jacketed hollow point with the little bump inside... it is definitely a high performance load that I have personally observed mushrooming out perfectly to the base of the hollow and dumping all of its energy in a two liter soda bottle filled with water... so much so that the bullet remained inside the badly distended (and emptied) bottle. Otherwise I'm still using my previously mentioned NOE 125 gr bullet in 327 brass, now over a charge of H-108 (no longer available, but I have a bunch for myself ) for about 1100-1200 fps or a 32 S&W L load of 2.5 gr Bullseye under a 100 gr swaged SWC from Hornady. Unfortunately it appears that they have discontinued the 500 rd packaging of this excellent bullet.

As far as the building project itself, I would start from the same Model 66 ND or a Model 66-1, my personal favorite variants of the model. I would get a Model 617 barrel in the length of my choice and have it bored by Clearwater (Delta Gun Works) or whoever could do a top notch job... this may be the most critical part of the job. The other part I would need to find would be the cylinder, and I would get either the Hamilton Bowen custom cylinder blank or one or another of the 22 family of stainless K-frame cylinders that S&W makes. Whatever cylinder I got, it would be one with an old school round extractor body to make the reboring and chambering job a little easier. Finally I would turn all the parts over to a gunsmith of talent and skill (I wouldn't hesitate to go back to Andy, but there are many fine gunsmiths out there who could do this job) and sit back impatiently until it was done. The only other variants to what I have done would be picking grips and sights. I'm still thinking about the Behlert sights I mentioned or perhaps ones by Wiegand, and I'm just getting ready to add a set of FGSC grips made of ebony (more for looks than any real utility.)

I found a classic Bianchi break front holster and some HKS Speedloaders that fit and I'm good to go. My home club is in the process of building a new 50 yd pistol range, so Project 616 should get out to play much more often this Spring and Summer. Think Warm Weather!!

Froggie

 

[PMRet]

As I've said before, this is one of the best custom builds ever. Every time I see this thread I have to fight the temptation to have my 4" 16-4 cut to 3", converted to round butt, bored out to .327 magnum, and hard chromed...

 

[petemacmahon]

I can thumb rounds into it right out of the semi auto magazine.

You know, I never thought of that or heard of it. But it sounds like a cool poor mans speed loader!

I've been watching this thread with some interest. I have a late 70's vintage police trade in model 15 that I would be tempted to convert to .327. From reading this thread, I think it would be best to go with the Bowen cylinder. The hard part might be finding a 22 barrel for re-boring that would have the proper profile for mating up to the M15 frame.

 

[Green Frog]

Petemacmahon, what you need is an early K-22 barrel with narrow rib (if your Model 15 has that lighter barrel profile.) if you are going with one of Bowen's cylinders, your only hold up would be getting the barrel rebored. Somebody posted recently that Clearwater was no longer doing barrels, but I haven't confirmed this.

BTW, I'm trying to decide whether to change my rear sight to one of the current Weigand modified sights, a NOS Austin Behlert sight I've had squirreled away for 25+ years or leave well enough alone. I'm leaning toward the Weigand.

Froggie

PS Three and a half years and this topic still reappears periodically. Is anyone in Springfield paying attention here?

 

[M29since14]

PS Three and a half years and this topic still reappears periodically. Is anyone in Springfield paying attention here?

Yeah, they're paying attention... to the plastic gun and AR15 markets - where the money is.

 

[les.b]

Froggie:

I just found this thread from a link you posted on susieqz .32 thread. What a wonderful project. I just skimmed the high points, but am going to re read the whole thing later today,

I knew from your other posts in the past, that you were a fan of the .:2s, but this is a great project, and a wonderful idea. Oh, that Smith would offer something like this (without the IL, of course).

Best Regards, Les