Proper Sight Picture?

[Red_Ryder]

I finally got back to the range yesterday and noticed something strange while firing my M&P 9mm. Prior to yesterday, I had only put about 20 rounds through the gun. Yesterday, I put over 50 through it and noticed that it seemed to be shooting low. I was firing at an 8 yard target and it was shooting about 5 inches lower than my aiming point. I was lining up the dots on the front sight with the dots on the rear sight so they were all in a horizontal row. Apparently, this makes it shoot low. To get the rounds to go where I wanted them to go, I had to make a "pyramid" by putting the front dot on top of the rear sight dots.

Is this normal? What should the sight picture be?

 

[magnum12pm]

You had it correct the first time, your dots should line up horizontal. The best way to check your sights is to rest the gun on some type of rest such as sand bags or a pistol rest. That way you know for sure if the gun sights are off or the shooter is off. I don't think even the pros use free hand shooting to adjust a sight handguns or rifles.

 

[OKFC05]

It's normal for people who are still getting used to "combat tupperware" and are breaking down on the shot due to not being familiar with the long trigger pull.

While it is possible the gun is defective, the greater likelyhood is that you are moving the gun. Concentrate on follow through. Dry firing helps. Use a paper plate as the bullseye, and quit trying to pull the trigger when the sights are "just right" on a tiny bull as this leads to yanking the trigger.

The normal sight picture is a normal "post" sight picture with the front sight same height as the rear, and equal space on both sides. The bullet should strike at the top of the front sight, more or less. The dots are for quick shots, not precision.

 

[Pisgah]

Maybe it's just me, but... every fixed-sight gun with 3-dot sight setup I have ever fired has required that the center dot be lined up with the side dots, and that the center dot cover the intended POI. Use the 6 o'clock hold, and I'm shooting low.

 

[OKFC05]

I sympathize--I've had students that had tried for months to get used to a Glock, M&P, or similar striker fired pistol, and just swore up and down the pistol was defective.
One student was hitting consistently a foot low at 5 yds, I mean a decent group but all equally low. I finally had the student hold a sight picture with finger out of triggerguard, and I reached around and pinched the trigger to fire it: the bullet hit dead center.

Some who use my guns want the sight "fixed" because my gun "shoots low." I won't let them mess with the sights, and by the end of the day, "the gun gets better."

 

[magnum12pm]

It's normal for people who are still getting used to "combat tupperware" and are breaking down on the shot due to not being familiar with the long trigger pull.

While it is possible the gun is defective, the greater likelyhood is that you are moving the gun. Concentrate on follow through. Dry firing helps. Use a paper plate as the bullseye, and quit trying to pull the trigger when the sights are "just right" on a tiny bull as this leads to yanking the trigger.

The normal sight picture is a normal "post" sight picture with the front sight same height as the rear, and equal space on both sides. The bullet should strike at the top of the front sight, more or less. The dots are for quick shots, not precision.

I agree, when the dots line up you then have a "post" sight picture. I always try without much success to get people to shoot from a rest, verify the sights are correct, which they usually are pretty close on fixed sight guns I have seen, not all, but most.

 

[Red_Ryder]

You had it correct the first time, your dots should line up horizontal. The best way to check your sights is to rest the gun on some type of rest such as sand bags or a pistol rest. That way you know for sure if the gun sights are off or the shooter is off. I don't think even the pros use free hand shooting to adjust a sight handguns or rifles.

Forgot to mention in my original post that after firing about 40 rounds through it, I knelt down and rested the gun on the shooting platform and fired off five shots. Real nice grouping but still about 5 inches low. Would putting on aftermarket sights fix the problem?

 

[magnum12pm]

Forgot to mention in my original post that after firing about 40 rounds through it, I knelt down and rested the gun on the shooting platform and fired off five shots. Real nice grouping but still about 5 inches low. Would putting on aftermarket sights fix the problem?

That seems pretty low at 8 yards, but I would set something up where the barrel and the butt of the gun are both supported, then test fire it, before I thought about spending money. If it is still that far off, contact S&W about sending it back for evaluation.

 

[gnystrom]

Try this. RIGHT CLICK.

 

[kodiakpb]

Forgot to mention in my original post that after firing about 40 rounds through it, I knelt down and rested the gun on the shooting platform and fired off five shots. Real nice grouping but still about 5 inches low. Would putting on aftermarket sights fix the problem?

Not unless you purposely get a shorter front sight to compensate for your flinching. You are "pushing" the shot in anticipation of recoil. Get some snap caps and have someone load your mag at the range so you are not expecting it. I guarantee you will see your weapon get pushed down.

 

[magnum12pm]

Not unless you purposely get a shorter front sight to compensate for your flinching. You are "pushing" the shot in anticipation of recoil. Get some snap caps and have someone load your mag at the range so you are not expecting it. I guarantee you will see your weapon get pushed down.

Yes, you are right on the flinch. I go to a really busy indoor range, with lots of new bee's there, they don't realize they are out of ammo, and give the extra trigger pull and its a mega flinch party. It happen to everyone, you just got to work through it. I just like to use the pistol rest trick just to prove that the gun is doing it's part.

 

[magnum12pm]

Try this.

View attachment 79467

That's a great picture, where can I get that. I like to print that and stick it in my range bag for reference when needed.

 

[Houdini1953]

Try this.

View attachment 79467

With my Tru Glo and new trigger I am perfect and that is a great example for others to follow, at least for me after today shooting through the same hole 6 times in the X of a bullseye!

 

[tgmorris99]

It is my understanding and experience that the M&P line uses a combat sight picture (#3) and the front dot should be placed on the intended POI as opposed to a 6'O'clock hold. On a combat pistol if either #1 or #2 sight pictures are used then the POI will be low.

One thing that's interesting about the talk about lining up the dots vs. the top of the posts is that almost all of the 3-dot systems seem to use the same dot size on the front & rear posts. This makes the front dot seem smaller as it's further away and and also encounters parallax issues. This naturally means that there's inherent "slop" if using the dots to line up the image instead of the tops of the posts. However, with my older eyes & corrective lenses it's nearly impossible to get a decent image if I focus on the front sight so I have to focus on the target and use the dot's & out of focus sights to get things lines up. At normal defensive distances this is more than accurate enough for CoM hits.

 

[patsfan1281]

so you want that #3 picture right? Because the other day when i was shooting..every single shot was low. So i tired to fix it....

I fixed it by almost dipping the back end of the gun down so the front sight went above the back sight lines and i was dead on....it was strange

 

[Rastoff]

so you want that #3 picture right?

No, the M&P, just like most guns, is intended to be used with sight picture #2 from the post above. This has been tested by many on this site from a bench rest and found to be true. However, the difference between #2 and #3 is so small as to be insignificant for self defense shooting.

Because the other day when i was shooting..every single shot was low.

Chances are this was you and not the gun. Let me guess, you were shooting off hand and without a support, right?

The only way to test the accuracy of the gun is to shoot it from a bench rest. This helps eliminate the human element and any associated errors.

 

[magnum12pm]

No, the M&P, just like most guns, is intended to be used with sight picture #2 from the post above. This has been tested by many on this site from a bench rest and found to be true. However, the difference between #2 and #3 is so small as to be insignificant for self defense shooting.

Chances are this was you and not the gun. Let me guess, you were shooting off hand and without a support, right?

The only way to test the accuracy of the gun is to shoot it from a bench rest. This helps eliminate the human element and any associated errors.

A bench rest is the only way to check the sights, I've said it so many times my lips are chapped, but people still want to hand hold!!

 

[Rastoff]

...but people still want to hand hold!!

I don't think that they "want" to, they just do. Further, it's really common to blame the equipment for poor performance. Not because a person thinks they are perfect, it's just normal to look for exterior sources of error. So, we blame the gun, the sights, the ammo for shots that consistently go where we don't intend.

Heavy triggers with a long pull, like the M&P, lend themselves to a slight flinch right at sear break. What's really amazing about people is that we can be very consistent with this. Thus, we shoot a group that is 1" in size, but low or low/left. Because the group is so small, it's only natural to think the problem is with the gun. I mean, if it were us, wouldn't the group be bigger? Unfortunately, that's not the case.

In more scientific terms, we tend to be repeatable, but not accurate due to a small flinch.

 

[patsfan1281]

Ya i haven't had a bench where i shoot so its hard to check the sights other then by hand but thats not the best way


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[bulldogman]

I've worked pretty hard at avoiding the flinch, with dry firing it looks like i have it under control and have improved my accuracy. Even still my shots are still a little off so I've tried shooting with both eyes open which does take a lot of getting used to but i shoot more accurately and am able to get back on target so much faster. For short range shooting it is way more effective for me than one eye only. Give it a try you might like it.