Put a yardstick under your arm and back up to a wall

Which you can't do because no two people will respond to being shot the same way. And no two people are alike. Kinda hard to see how a bullet performs.

I'm just curious as to why you don't let the FBI know about this? Obviously you figured it out

Ah, the FBI...remember "The Computer Man"? :rolleyes:

The FBI insisted the 10mm was the schizzle...till they found the agents couldn't handle the recoil (the upside of that debacle: development of the .40 S&W--but by S&W and Winchester, not the FBI :D).

There are studies of how bullets by caliber & design, behave in humans. Some call it 'anecdotal', and therefore, invalid. I say, "Five hundred anecdotes is pretty darn convincing!".

Those studies have been conducted by a couple of guys named Marshall & Sanow.

I'd try explaining it to the FBI...but have you ever tried to tell a lawyer or accountant, how to do something? :D
 
Shooting into the gel tells you what that bullet does in gel and that is a far cry from what it will do in the real world in a live animal. Larry

9BPLE is one sterling example of that.
 
Ah, the FBI...remember "The Computer Man"? :rolleyes:

The FBI insisted the 10mm was the schizzle...till they found the agents couldn't handle the recoil (the upside of that debacle: development of the .40 S&W--but by S&W and Winchester, not the FBI :D).

There are studies of how bullets by caliber & design, behave in humans. Some call it 'anecdotal', and therefore, invalid. I say, "Five hundred anecdotes is pretty darn convincing!".

Those studies have been conducted by a couple of guys named Marshall & Sanow.

I'd try explaining it to the FBI...but have you ever tried to tell a lawyer or accountant, how to do something? :D
You mean the two guys who data may have been doctored to suit their investment interests?

I wasn't aware lawyers were testing ammo
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You mean the two guys who data may have been doctored to suit their investment interests?

I wasn't aware lawyers were testing ammo
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Take your choice. :D

I'll take hundreds of street results over lab theories, any day.
 
Well...this took a predictable path.

----

The fact is that the ballistic gelatin fans like the predictability and repeatability of gel tests. Unfortunately, many of them fail to always make the connection that the 12" to 18" penetration distance with at least 1.5X expansion is a range set by the FBI based largely on the real world performance of loads that seem to have worked well in actual field shoots.

In that regard, the field reports are just as important, although the gel fans like to dismiss them as "case studies".

It's true that a single shoot tells you very little. The value of real world field data is in the patterns that emerge in the analysis of a large number of shoots with a number of calibers and loads fired under a wide range of circumstances.

You need the field data to validate the assumptions that are used to guide the gel testing, and you need to the gel testing to get a reasonable comparison of the performance of different loads in different pistols and revolvers.

----

So in essence, it's never a good idea to decide you only need one, and then start bashing the other. To do so suggests a serious level of ignorance of the strengths and limitations of either approach and how they complement each other.
 
The 12" to 18" FBI standard also assumes some very LEO specific issues.

For example LEOs can and often do fire at fleeing felons, where the aspect angle may be less than ideal. LEOs may also find themselves firing at suspects who have mistaken concealment for cover and are behind an interior wall.

Both are situations where to some degree or another an armed citizen might find them selves hard pressed to demonstrate an imminent threat existed that justified their use of deadly force.

Most armed citizen self defense shoots do in fact occur at short range and with the assailant more or less in a face to face orientation.

Do you need and want 12" of penetration in ballistic gel? Most likely that's a really good idea.

Do you want much more than 12" of penetration in ballistic gel? Probably not. Even from the side, 12" is enough to reach the vitals, and you are not likely to be shooting through windshields, car doors, etc, where the bullet may lose a lot of velocity before it reaches the target.

You definitely don't want or need more than 18" of penetration in ballistic gel. Yes, it's true that the elastic nature of skin tissue gives it an equivalent on exit of about 4" of ballistic gel, but on the average torso, any more than 18' of penetration increases the risk of an over penetrating round passing through and injuring a bystander.
 
Well...this took a predictable path.

Like a slug through a block of calibrated gelatin? :D

I may be hazy, but I do believe the FBI's initial pronouncement (circa 1988 maybe) after Platt-Matix was a duty load must "penetrate a minimum of 18 inches."

As noted, they revised that criteria--based on street results.
 
Marshall and Sannow's works are best used for fire starter or to perhaps level out a table on a very uneven surface, it is pretty well useless for anything else. Terminal ballistics is the science of how bullets do damage and stop, or fail to stop, attacks, and effects of bullets in various conditions and scenarios are far more useful to us than poorly cobbled together rough statistics. And worthless, poorly defined statistics is Marshall and Sannow's work. With all of their thrown together numbers, we don't get useful context to determine the effectiveness of the round in those scenarios, and the individual incidents are too different to be put together in a similar category in the first place for statistical purposes. M&S don't distinguish between a shot through intestinal track, a shot through the aorta, though the kidney, straight through from the front of the torso, a long angle shot through the torso that failed to get to organs, ect. Every single event they record for first shot to the torso is sloppily, carelessly lumped with each other, the only thing separating the shoots is cartridge load!

If you took M&S's trash and tried to replicate their percentages of one stop shot in real life scenarios, the relevance is non existent. They didn't put together a couple of anecdotes, they threw together cherry picked numbers to create the message they wanted, and even if they did do it right, the information is still too poorly separated scientifically to actually draw a single scientific conclusion. This mass aggregate without proper definition is pointless. Keep in mind, science is cause and effect, correlation is observation to hypothesis, not proof of anything. M&S's work do not, in any way, actually make any scientific or valuable statements to prove any of their theories, ideas, or actually prove any round is better than any other.

I believe Dr. Fackler wrote a very good article about why Marshall and Sannow are complete garbage, and shows why the work is less than relevant, it is misleading.

As for the original subject, I'll plug my own video shamelessly to make a point:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQcNjIThmHQ[/ame]

Attackers may not line themselves up in perfect straight angles to you, may not be standing straight up and walking tall at you, or standing still. You may not be standing in your proper shooting stance like you would be at the range or during normal training. Between your stance and the attacker's stance, shot angle can multiply the depth of shot to vitals dramatically, turning a 5 inch shot to a man's heart into a 18 inch shot. As far as pure depth in the human body, 18 inches or even further, especially as an attacker's size is increased in our theory, becomes very real indeed.

Yes, different tissues resist differently. From the old FBI and other works I've seen human skin can range from 2 to 4 inches worth of average muscle or ballistics gel because of its strength and elasticity. A steel pellet that pierces 3 inches into a ballistics gel block may not even pierce someone's skin in a certain situation, meaning that just because something can pierce a block does not necessarily mean it will pierce flesh, or certainly won't pierce that much in a living being. This means that 12 inches in a gel block can easily be less than what we think.

As for peace officer vs. citizen, I think that argument is almost null. Just because police are more likely to get into a gun fight, and can get into more severe gun fights, have to chase after bad guys, ect., does not mean that the realities of a gun fight are different. If a civilian is in a gun fight, it will be no different than if he was a cop, and all the real world laws and physics apply. If your attacker is at an angle and you are shooting at an angle, that doesn't magically change the terminal ballistics and effects of your bullet because you aren't a police officer. A gunfight doesn't get any easier, and the bad guys don't shoot any different, or act any different, because you are a civilian. The same failures a bullet may have for a police officer can very easily happen to a non police officer. Bad guys don't make exceptions, and don't follow magical rules about killing innocent people.
 
Somewhere I read that skin has the same resistance to bullets as 4" of muscle tissue.
On the exit side only.

I have never in my 74 years heard of anybody being injured, attacked or in any way molested by a bowl of jello. Shooting into the gel tells you what that bullet does in gel and that is a far cry from what it will do in the real world in a live animal. Larry
Properly calibrated ballistic gelatin was designed to correlate well with actual bullet behavior.

Thanks to all commenters....I don't know a whole lot about gel testing but was concerned my new 45 might me "TO MUCH" for
EDC self defense...

Thanks again
.45 ACP is not too much on the receiving end.
 
Bullets, especially handgun bullets, very often glance off of the thick, rounded parts of the human skull and the skulls of many animals. Often, they penetrate the skin, encounter the bone at an angle and follow the curvature of the bone around the skull, sometimes exiting the skin on the opposite side of the skull from the entry point. Looks all the world like a through-and-through when the damage is often superficial. I have seen this first hand several times.

Sometimes, the bullet impacting the skull will deflect and not penetrate but will cause a depressed fracture, often sending bone fragments inside the skull through the brain tissue while the bullet goes off in some other direction.

The perfect bullet would penetrate the body completely and run out of energy just after it breaks through the skin on the far side, then dropping to the ground next to the shootee. We will never see that.

It's pretty well impossible to establish rules to govern bullet behavior with more than generalizations. Too much penetration is in my mind preferable to insufficient penetration.
 
you are using the wrong ammo as you have shot through the threat and endangered whatever is behind them...be that person or property.

The number crunchers say that the majority of shots fired in a gunfight, whether from LE or bad guys, actually miss the intended target. So whoever or whatever is behind them is indeed in danger, regardless what the latest wonder bullet will do when fired into ballistic gel.

I'd suggest picking your self defense ammo based on what has the best chance of keeping you alive. If innocents are in your line of fire, you'd better re-think things.
 
Hold a ruler under your arm and your belly is bigger than your chest?

If one cant see his feet until one takes a step can we pass this test and go back to normal programming?
 
I have never in my 74 years heard of anybody being injured, attacked or in any way molested by a bowl of jello. Shooting into the gel tells you what that bullet does in gel and that is a far cry from what it will do in the real world in a live animal. Larry

Thank you Larry, you are exactly right. Ballistic gel is just that, gel. It is not under the influence of anything, it's not trying to kill you and it's not wearing anything, regardless of the weather. While a well placed round of (caliber of your choice) may stop me in my tracks, it may pass through the next guy and he will keep coming at you intent on killing you.
Last time I shot gel it was still gel, it just had a bullet hole in it.
 
Never ceases to amaze me how so many threads try to be taken off into 7 or 8 different directions rather than concentrate on the thread subject...

Intent was to discuss possible overpenetration of certain caliber and weights of ammo (ie 185 45, or some +p+ calibers) in everyday self defense usage.

Thanks to all for all the comments....all appreciated, and yes I did get an education about balistic gel.
 
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