Quality Control Department

[KJS]

Does S&W actually have one?

I starting to seriously doubt it. My 986 literally fell apart after only 100 rounds the first time I took it to the range and had to be sent back to S&W for repair. That repair took about 3 weeks.

Today I went to the range with 30 clips of 9mm ammo all ready to fire. Unfortunately, my 986 wasn't in the mood to fire many of them, leaving about 3 per clip unfired with light primer strikes. Even running it through again for a second hit didn't get it to fire.

It sure wasn't an ammo problem, since after removing all the unfired ammo from the clips I loaded it into my Beretta 92 which fired it without incident.

Tomorrow morning I have to call S&W to get a return ticket e-mailed to me. I plan to ask if they offer expedited service in a case like this. A case where I paid $1,000 for a revolver and have now had two problems with it that require it be sent back to S&W for repair. It sure seems like after paying so much I should actually have a working revolver in my hands & that S&W should give it priority treatment seeing how this is a second failure of a pricey gun that's under 3 months old. They could offer things like overnight shipping, instead of cheaper 2 day shipping. (Dan Wesson uses overnight shipping in their repair department -- I know as I've sent them two 1911s).

I seriously have to wonder if S&W even has a quality control department or did they fire them all, leaving you & me as quality control inspectors? We find the problems, contact S&W, and S&W fixes them? Those who use their guns less and/or those who are less sophisticated are less likely to find problems, so many problems go unreported & unfixed.

I admit I'm a very picky man, but in this case I don't think I'm being too picky to expect a revolver to actually fire 100% of the time instead of leaving 3 of 7 rounds in a clip unfired.

I must say I'm not at all impressed by American made quality. As I said earlier I have two Dan Wesson 1911s visiting NY for warranty repair. One is the 9mm Pointman and the other is the .45 Specialist. And you just read of my problems with the fine (and pricey) American made S&W revolver.

I bought 4 guns at the same time. Guess which one haven't given me any problems: it would be the foreign made ones. The Springfield XD(M) 5.25" Competition Model is an excellent gun. No problems at all & made in Croatia. My Beretta 92A1 hasn't had any problem either, made in Italy.

Is American quality manufacturing simply dead? Are we going to turn into Taurus? I can't help but notice that all the guns to give me problems are American made while that foreign made guns have been free of problems. And I've put thousands of rounds though that Beretta, so don't think it works simply because I haven't used it much. Same with the Springfield. I love the Springfield and it's gotten a whole lot of use. When I like a gun, I run a stunning amount of ammo through it. For example, today I used 500 rounds of 9mm, a truly staggering amount by any normal standard. I shot a LOT.

 

[amazingflapjack]

*****YEP*****

 

[Laketime]

This is that new and improved era of manufacturing that the Engineer was referring to last week on his thread.

 

[DWalt]

S&W Motto: "Our customers are the final QC Inspectors"

 

[colt_saa]

In 2012 S&W produced in excess of 800,000 firearms. Using a standard business week, that is over 3,200 firearms each day. If we work for 8 hours (no breaks) that is 400+ firearms have to be QCed every hour.

KJS,
How long should be spent test firing and doing a QC on a singe firearm in a perfect world?

Using whatever that time figure is, how many employees would need to be in the QC department to meet the 400+ firearms per hour figure that was achieved in 2012?

What do you think would happen to retail prices if S&W put on that big of a QC staff? More than half of S&Ws firearms already retail for more than $1,000.

Now what happens to QC when an employee calls in sick? Has a hangover? Spouse or child trouble on their mind? Or on pain killers from a broken leg or something? Or someone just misses something because they are human?

S&W has never put out 100% perfect firearms or there would be no need to offer a warranty.

 

[DWalt]

What you say has some truth. However, adequate QA control over individual components will prevent most problems in the finished handgun. And that should be highly automated and precise. In an era when it may take S&W up to a year to get repair work performed, a warranty may not be much comfort. So even one bad gun out the back door is one too many.

 

[colt_saa]

What you say has some truth. However, adequate QA control over individual components will prevent most problems in the finished handgun. And that should be highly automated and precise. In an era when it may take S&W up to a year to get repair work performed, a warranty may not be much comfort. So even one bad gun out the back door is one too many.

I do not see how more QC at the individual parts level would prevent KJS' issue, which is the topic at hand.

If it would not have prevented KJS' issue we would still have this thread

Also KJS states it took 3 weeks for his last warranty experience, not a year.

If "ONE BAD GUN" out of more than 800,000 is one too many, I doubt that any amount of QC will be sufficient. QC inspectors are human, they make mistakes, things will get past them.

 

[Dennis The B]

No one person can "inspect" quality into anything, whether it's an auto, gun, television, or clothes washer. Quality has to be completely integral to the total design, engineering, and production processes. And breakdowns in communication in any part, will guarantee poor quality.

However, even if all the parties involved don't ignore the process, stuff still happens. Parts can all be built to specification, but specifications all have high and low tolerances. If the high parameter on one part meets the low parameter on another, there can be quality problems. Things just may not work correctly.

That doesn't excuse poor repair functions if needed. When a product is returned because of poor performance, the manufacturer needs to go to further limits to insure that the product is performing to the customer's expectations.

A poor repair job is the worst of customer service.

 

[Arik]

I say they run a 500 round function test and sell them as used

 

[M29since14]

Is American quality manufacturing simply dead? ...

No, it is not. However, greed is alive and well. In many corporations there is more interest in sales volume/market share than there is in quality/customer satisfaction. If you think S&W is guilty of that, you probably also realize they are not alone. The problem is not peculiar to the U.S. - but we may have "invented" it.

 

[Pizza Bob]

KJS: I know this is obvious, but I have to ask: Did you check the strain screw? I have an acquaintance who had a new 686 SSR. Fired several hundred rounds through it - ran 100%. Took it to an IDPA match, first time up on the line -bang, click, click, click. The strain screw had backed-off 1.5 turns. Cranked it down and we were at 100% once again. Check the strain screw and if it has backed off, a drop of purple Loc-Tite will keep it in place. Hope this is all it was.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

PS: This really should be in the 1980 - Present Forum

 

[Gunz50]

Could the OP please post as to what exactly he meant by "fell Apart"
And have you checked the main spring screw as suggested?

 

[unclebob]

In 2012 S&W produced in excess of 800,000 firearms. Using a standard business week, that is over 3,200 firearms each day. If we work for 8 hours (no breaks) that is 400+ firearms have to be QCed every hour.

KJS,
How long should be spent test firing and doing a QC on a singe firearm in a perfect world?

Using whatever that time figure is, how many employees would need to be in the QC department to meet the 400+ firearms per hour figure that was achieved in 2012?

What do you think would happen to retail prices if S&W put on that big of a QC staff? More than half of S&Ws firearms already retail for more than $1,000.

Now what happens to QC when an employee calls in sick? Has a hangover? Spouse or child trouble on their mind? Or on pain killers from a broken leg or something? Or someone just misses something because they are human?

S&W has never put out 100% perfect firearms or there would be no need to offer a warranty.

I don't agree with all your points but quality control should be number one in the firearms industry, albeit these are considered tools they are not screwdrivers they are used for self protection. The best warranty is one that is never used.
I have life insurance and I hope I will not have to use it.

 

[Laketime]

Just look at Kimber for example.Prior to 2003 when each gun was hand checked or fitted throughout the entire build process. They made a supurb 1911.Since then at 50k plus guns a year , less hands on attention and the brand is no longer held in the same regards .Anytime a company goes full automation to produce quantity the quality suffers despite what Engineers have to say about modern manufacturing methods.

 

[M29since14]

...Anytime a company goes full automation to produce quantity the quality suffers despite what Engineers have to say about modern manufacturing methods.

Just tell this to any of the advocates of in-process inspection/dispensing with final inspection. But be prepared for an earful of the biggest bunch of nonsense you have ever heard in your life. It all starts with the notion that the employee is never at fault.

Colt_saa hints at this theory in his 12:44 post. Unfortunately, the idea has become more prevalent with each passing day. "Quality is everybody's job." True enough - it is, but that phrase is often used to conceal just another lame "cost-saving" move that a manufacturer will attempt to implement long before they are really prepared to deploy it.

 

[user151]

I have life insurance and I hope I will not have to use it.

You forgot the smiley face after that comment

 

[Camster]

I don't agree with all your points but quality control should be number one in the firearms industry, albeit these are considered tools they are not screwdrivers they are used for self protection. The best warranty is one that is never used.
I have life insurance and I hope I will not have to use it.

The reality is that the factory runs 24/7. When I took the tour many years ago,I noted that most of the workers were older guys.Doing a mind numbing job,for long shifts,for decades,doesn't make for quality.
I think that the assembler is the last person to check the quality.The test shooter only tests for function of a few rounds.There is no one looking a product with a fresh set of eyes before it hits the door.
For some reason,the factory thinks it;s cheaper to have a few bounce back.I don't quite see how that works economically.I've sent back a percentage of new purchases that was far too high.

 

[Pizza Bob]

I have to laugh every time I read a thread bemoaning the quality of today's S&W's and how the guns produced "back in the day" were so much better, etc, etc. Let me tell you, when I was buying guns back in the day, we all bemoaned the quality of the Bangor Punta guns (mid-60's to mid-80's) and blamed it on their ownership. We all lusted for the guns of the 50's and 60's. I'm sure enthusiasts in the 50's and 60's thought contemporary guns were trash and lusted after those from the 30's and 40's....and so it goes. Truth be told, the S&W of today is probably turning out some of the finest revolvers they have ever made. In the 2020's and 2030's everyone will be scrambling for S&W's made in the oughts and teens.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[Hotshot10]

KJS: I know this is obvious, but I have to ask: Did you check the strain screw? I have an acquaintance who had a new 686 SSR. Fired several hundred rounds through it - ran 100%. Took it to an IDPA match, first time up on the line -bang, click, click, click. The strain screw had backed-off 1.5 turns. Cranked it down and we were at 100% once again. Check the strain screw and if it has backed off, a drop of purple Loc-Tite will keep it in place. Hope this is all it was

My 686-6 had the same issue last weekend. Tightening that screw solved the problem.

 

[ken158]

Is anyone so naïve to think S&W "has or ever had" a quality control department? Quality control is controlled by the employees that build and shoot the guns thereby certifying they are built correct and work as intended. Back in the day when employees were paid by piece work - inspectors marks would indicate who made and assembled them and if a problem came up in the process, the guy responsible had to fix it. Now they just run them through an assembly line and you get what you get... I think the quantity produced with issues would be very small percent to the total quantity produced. Has anyone ever had the factory refuse to repair their S&W for anything other than owner negligence?