Quality Control Department

I'm not a Glocker, and don't even own one, but I almost never hear any badmouthing of their functional quality. Nor of Berettas. I know much more about the Beretta 92 (Military M9) than any other handgun, and I know of no quality-related problems after the infamous slide cracking issue back in the early days. So how do Beretta and Glock do it?
 
KJS said:
Actually, that is not obvious to me, nor to probably the other 95% of gun owners who don't know what a strain screw is.

Yes, now is everyone's chance to attack me for my failure to have a background in finance rather than gunsmitthing.
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Whoa there hoss. I was just trying to ask a question without insulting your intelligence. I could have said, "Hey, idiot, tighten the strain screw." Learn to accept a little help without becoming adversarial.

No good deed goes unpunished. I also think you insulted the many that do know what a strain screw is and what it does.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
 
After three bad brand new chevy's in a row I'm happy with my cars from Japan and my old faithful 99 jeep.

The best running jeep I have is a willy's 1955.

I can accept a problem with a gun. I had two new Colts with problems.

I like my S&W revolvers for sure.

I still have prostate cancer even though it's in remission. I don't sweat the things in life that go wrong anymore. I've traded bad new guns in.

I feel your pain brother for sure. But S&W stands behind there products they will fix it. Let's face it there isn't much out there that's equal to a Smith.

After my bad luck with colt 1911's I purchased every how to DVD from AGI, WILSON COMBAT and Jerry K to learn how to build, tune, and repair 1911's. I tuned and built my norinco 1911 she shoots clusters and cloverleafs at 25yds. No matter who shoots it.

My curse was if there was one thing that had problems out of 100,000 I'd get the bad one, cars, trucks, washers, tv, chairs, you name it.

My new Smith's are good.

Three brand new Remington 1100's failed to open the bolt in the store. The fourth one opened.
 
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What has happened in many fields is the older experienced folks have aged out and moved onto retirement. They're being replaced with less expensive and under experienced staff, the younger folks. It takes time for the new generation to catch up to the skills, but with fast paced and demanding work places for less pay they don't always stay put. Let's face it the world has changed and so has our gun manufacturers way of doing business. They have to try to maintain a price point to stay in business and do it by selling more and more to sustain the growth required to keep stock holders happy. It's like the perfect storm. What will happen is with enough constructive feedback they'll have to pay attention and fine tune the issues. With such high output things will get out the door less than perfect at times and frustrate some. Try to keep the faith and help them work through the issues with constructive feedback. They will make good on your issues in the end.
 
I do believe that quality control is the responsibly of the manufacturer…….be it a handgun, or a pickup……but I do have a question of your knowledge of firearms in general when you make the statement, …….

"I admit I'm a very picky man, but in this case I don't think I'm being too picky to expect a revolver to actually fire 100% of the time instead of leaving 3 of 7 rounds in a clip unfired."……….

I don't own any S&W revolvers that hold 7 rounds……or that use a "clip"…….but I don't own a lot of the "new S&W revolvers"

Semper Fi!
 
As was stated earlier, you cannot inspect quality into a product - you must engineer and build it into the final product. If you assume that each step in a manufacturing process receives a 100% inspection, you will still miss about 20% of the defects - that is reality, and it was proven in the 1940's by Drs. Deming and Juran, who were the fathers of modern quality control. your best and most reliable route to high product quality is the concept of 'Operator Certification' or OPCERT. In this process, any quality-affecting step is performed by an operator (machinist, assembler, welder, whatever) who has been trained in the use of the necessary dimensional measuring tools and has demonstrated his skill at performing his operation and the necessary checks without failure - "quality is everyone's job". Only a percentage of the operations are checked by QC (inspection by sampling), and only a percentage of the final product receives an inspection. While this may seem counter-intuitive, statistical process control does work, and it yields a higher quality product than individual 100% inspection. This is what was taught to the Japanese by Deming and Juran in the late 1950's and 1960's and adopted by them and imposed by the Japanese Ministry of Trade and Industry to improve the image of Japanese products.

And for those who still believe that Japanese cars are superior in product quality, I would suggest that they actually research the facts - American cars are equally as good today (not always so, but we have made dramatic improvements) and the highly touted German cars seem to have the highest number of problems per unit. And by the way, many of the "Oh so superior Japanese" cars are actually assembled in America.
 
I am amazed that so many posters believe that Quality Control Departments still exist. Most have been gone in the US since the early 90's. I know someone will post behind me otherwise and I'm sure someone still has those Departments but not many company's do. I sent a gun back to Smith and it was repaired correctly and back to me in less than 2 weeks. I posted about the great service on here and not one comment followed. Had I posted how bad the service was I would have had many jump on the bandwagon. Why is that? Can someone tell me?
 
Keep in mind that I was firing what is simply a range toy for fun. What if someone had instead been firing a 686 in a life & death situation? This kind of failure could leave them dead, instead of merely annoyed. Do you tell a dead person's family, "well, not all guns are going to work when they're supposed to."?
 
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marinevet said:
I do believe that quality control is the responsibly of the manufacturer…….be it a handgun, or a pickup……but I do have a question of your knowledge of firearms in general when you make the statement, …….

"I admit I'm a very picky man, but in this case I don't think I'm being too picky to expect a revolver to actually fire 100% of the time instead of leaving 3 of 7 rounds in a clip unfired."……….

I don't own any S&W revolvers that hold 7 rounds……or that use a "clip"…….but I don't own a lot of the "new S&W revolvers"

Semper Fi!
Click to expand...

-- Actually the revolver in question is chambered in 9mm, so yes...it does use clips.
 
ok, I was wrong……when I hear the term "clip" used, I think of a removable magazine……google definition,

"A clip is a device that is used to store multiple rounds of ammunition together as a unit, ready for insertion into the magazine or cylinder of a firearm. This speeds up the process of loading and reloading the firearm as several rounds can be loaded at once, rather than one round being loaded at a time. Several different types of clips exist, most of which are made of inexpensive metal stampings that are designed to be disposable, though they are often re-used.

The defining difference between clips and magazines is the presence of a feed mechanism in a magazine, typically a spring-loaded follower, which a clip lacks."……

once again, I don't own any 7 shot revolvers, or any that use "clips"

Semper Fi!
 
colt_saa said:
In 2012 S&W produced in excess of 800,000 firearms. Using a standard business week, that is over 3,200 firearms each day. If we work for 8 hours (no breaks) that is 400+ firearms have to be QCed every hour.

KJS,
How long should be spent test firing and doing a QC on a singe firearm in a perfect world?

Using whatever that time figure is, how many employees would need to be in the QC department to meet the 400+ firearms per hour figure that was achieved in 2012?

What do you think would happen to retail prices if S&W put on that big of a QC staff? More than half of S&Ws firearms already retail for more than $1,000.
Click to expand...

This is seriously your argument for why their quality control isn't up to par? They already have higher prices than many other gun makers and they still can't manage to make a gun that fires! Nor a gun that doesn't literally fall apart on its first range visit.

I guess I'm just being too picky to expect a gun to actually fire. I apologize. The next time a woman is attacked by a rapist or a man is about to be beaten to death by a gang of thugs, they can not-so-confidently reach for their S&W where the motto is "Hey, it might fire."
 
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KJS said:
Keep in mind that I was firing what is simply a range toy for fun. What if someone had instead been firing a 686 in a life & death situation? This kind of failure could leave them dead, instead of merely annoyed. Do you tell a dead person's family, "well, not all guns are going to work when they're supposed to."?
Click to expand...
Of course not, but I would tell a live person staking his life on a firearm to test it and retest with the ammo it'll be carrying to confirm absolute reliability first.
 
KJS said:
This is seriously your argument for why their quality control isn't up to par? They already have higher prices than many other gun makers and they still can't manage to make a gun that fires! Nor a gun that doesn't literally fall apart on its first range visit.

I guess I'm just being too picky to expect a gun to actually fire. I apologize. The next time a woman is attacked by a rapist or a man is about to be beaten to death by a gang of thugs, they can not-so-confidently reach for their S&W where the motto is "Hey, it might fire."
Click to expand...
Your frustration is understandable, but you're way out of proportion at this point. Contrary to your assertion, they make hundreds of thousands of guns a year that fire just fine, repeatedly so.

Some lemons escape the plant; you got one. It sucks but there's remedy: hold S&W accountable until they repair it properly on their dime. They'll do it.
 
KJS said:
This is seriously your argument for why their quality control isn't up to par? They already have higher prices than many other gun makers and they still can't manage to make a gun that fires! Nor a gun that doesn't literally fall apart on its first range visit.

I guess I'm just being too picky to expect a gun to actually fire. I apologize. The next time a woman is attacked by a rapist or a man is about to be beaten to death by a gang of thugs, they can not-so-confidently reach for their S&W where the motto is "Hey, it might fire."
Click to expand...
I am not arguing with you at all.

No company can produce 100% perfect products 100% of the time. It is not possible.

By pointing out some facts and asking you a simple question I was trying to show how expensive it would be to get closer to being perfect.

Just because YOU got a bad firearm does not indicate that S&W's QC is not up to par. Let S&W take care of it.

No one wants to be the person that gets a bad one, but it will occur. I have had firearms with problems, I got them fixed. I also had LOTS more firearms without problems.
 
unclebob said:
I don't agree with all your points but quality control should be number one in the firearms industry, albeit these are considered tools they are not screwdrivers they are used for self protection. The best warranty is one that is never used.
I have life insurance and I hope I will not have to use it.
Click to expand...

Oh, but you will someday.
 
Perfectionists & Accountants

It would seem reasonable to expect S&W to test fire a new revolver with more than 1 round. The old revolvers all came with 3 dirty cylinders from test firing. This presents S&W with 2 failure modes -- according to KJS post:

1: My new revolver had 'X' dirty cylinders and the face of the cylinder was "burned" on 'X' places.

2: My revolver doesn't fire every time I pull the trigger, it fires 4 of 7 rounds. Are your moon clips defective?

If S&W uses the Customer as the final QC inspector, then buy a used S&W revolver -- they are cheaper, been through at least one final customer inspection, and have already been back to the factory for repair.

Manufacturing and finance do not have the same functional philosophy. Money has to balance to the penny or you have an accounting error. Manufacturing will accept a product that is "within specifications" and ship it to the customer without concern about producing a perfect product. The REAL goal is product that is within specification.

When was the last time S&W paid a dividend? Don't believe it has happened yet regardless of the profit margins. I bought S&W for less than $3 per share and was quite happy to sell at $8.50 per share.

As a happily retired practical mechanical engineer, cost accountants and perfectionists pushed me close to the edge more than once in my career. It would have been nice if they talked to each other more, and me a lot less. Now every one remain calm and don't let your delicate side get riled up over someone else's problem. :D

This horse is dead (after many similar threads), but let the flogging continue.
 
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Hapworth said:
Your frustration is understandable, but you're way out of proportion at this point. Contrary to your assertion, they make hundreds of thousands of guns a year that fire just fine, repeatedly so.

Some lemons escape the plant; you got one. It sucks but there's remedy: hold S&W accountable until they repair it properly on their dime. They'll do it.
Click to expand...

You are really giving KJS the benefit of the doubt. There is no credible evidence that he did indeed get a lemon, or two. All we have are his hyperbolic claims, an off-the-wall rant at S&W and no follow-up as to what the problems actually were.

I suspect that the gun that "fell apart" actually had some screws come loose. Recoil impulse can do that. I routinely check screw tightness when I clean my revolvers. I've still have had screws back out to the extent that in the middle of a reload, during an IDPA stage, I found myself holding the cylinder and crane assembly in my left hand and the remainder of the firearm in my right. Crane screw backed out - S&W's fault? I don't think so, but I bet KJS would.

We still don't know whether it was a simple tightening of the strain screw that fixed his light strike dilemma, and may never since he was in such a rush to condemn all things S&W - he probably sent it off before he checked the easy things first.

He also seems to not realize that one of the functions of a forum such as this is for the more knowledgeable to mentor those that are just learning about their firearms - a place to garner knowledge. His initial post and his responses border on "trollism".

I didn't start out to make this a personal attack on KJS, but as I read through this thread, it seems that it has imparted very little constructive information and a lot of vitriol. I apologize to the forum if you think I am out of line.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
 
Sorry to hear about your bad luck with your new Revolver. I bought a new S&W 69 revolver last month. Since receiving it I have fired a couple of Hundred full power .44 Magnum Rounds. The Revolver has performed as designed with no problems. It is highly accurate, and I am quite pleased with it. Looks like you just got a Lemon. Send it back until you get it fixed properly.
 
Pizza Bob said:
You are really giving KJS the benefit of the doubt. There is no credible evidence that he did indeed get a lemon, or two. All we have are his hyperbolic claims, an off-the-wall rant at S&W and no follow-up as to what the problems actually were.

I suspect that the gun that "fell apart" actually had some screws come loose. Recoil impulse can do that. I routinely check screw tightness when I clean my revolvers. I've still have had screws back out to the extent that in the middle of a reload, during an IDPA stage, I found myself holding the cylinder and crane assembly in my left hand and the remainder of the firearm in my right. Crane screw backed out - S&W's fault? I don't think so, but I bet KJS would.

We still don't know whether it was a simple tightening of the strain screw that fixed his light strike dilemma, and may never since he was in such a rush to condemn all things S&W - he probably sent it off before he checked the easy things first.

He also seems to not realize that one of the functions of a forum such as this is for the more knowledgeable to mentor those that are just learning about their firearms - a place to garner knowledge. His initial post and his responses border on "trollism".

I didn't start out to make this a personal attack on KJS, but as I read through this thread, it seems that it has imparted very little constructive information and a lot of vitriol. I apologize to the forum if you think I am out of line.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
Click to expand...
Agreed, literally, with every word you posted. My purpose was to politely try to ameliorate an increasingly emotional and combative series of replies from OP with a reiteration of fact and refocus on a simple, neutral solution.

I check screws regularly, too -- mine, and others if they'll let me. ;)
 
Engineer1911 said:
2: My revolver doesn't fire every time I pull the trigger, it fires 4 of 7 rounds. Are your moon clips defective?
Click to expand...

Moon clips that are no more than 2 months old and which all worked just fine the last time I used them within the last 2 weeks have magically become defective? How exactly would that happen? I'm very careful with how I transport my moon clips such that they don't get bent. Specifically, I transport them in a padded case. Can you think of a better way to transport them?
 
KJS said:
Moon clips that are no more than 2 months old and which all worked just fine the last time I used them within the last 2 weeks have magically become defective? How exactly would that happen? I'm very careful with how I transport my moon clips such that they don't get bent. Specifically, I transport them in a padded case. Can you think of a better way to transport them?
Click to expand...
Try discussing this like a rational adult on a friendly enthusiasts' forum.

Sarcastic words like "magically" and challenging fellow members to devise better solutions to how you transport your clips doesn't serve you or this thread.

Replying to honest, neutrally asked questions as if they are personal attacks is rapidly yielding diminishing returns for the discussion.

What did S&W cite as the cause of your first problem with the revolver and what was their fix?
 
Terms,

Clip not correct.

It's stripper clip it holds the bullets/ammo in a fixed / captured straight line. There is a notch in the bolt or receiver to load the stripper clip into then the bullets are pushed straight down into the magazine. Then the stripper clip can be removed and the bolt returned to full battery.
Stripper Clip refers to a semi auto gun. There are semi auto rifles and pistols that use stripper clips for loading.

The detachable magazine holds the bullets captured inside it. It's spring loaded so it pushes the rounds up so the bolt can load them into full battery their can be a semi auto or a bolt action gun.
 
BigBill said:
Terms,

Clip not correct.

It's stripper clip it holds the bullets/ammo in a fixed / captured straight line. There is a notch in the bolt or receiver to load the stripper clip into then the bullets are pushed straight down into the magazine. Then the stripper clip can be removed and the bolt returned to full battery.
Stripper Clip refers to a semi auto gun. There are semi auto rifles and pistols that use stripper clips for loading.

The detachable magazine holds the bullets captured inside it. It's spring loaded so it pushes the rounds up so the bolt can load them into full battery their can be a semi auto or a bolt action gun.
Click to expand...
All correct for certain semiautos and bolt actions.

For revolvers, such as the 986 discussed in this thread, "moon clip" -- often reduced simply to "clip" -- is the correct terminology.
 
KJS said:
Moon clips that are no more than 2 months old and which all worked just fine the last time I used them within the last 2 weeks have magically become defective? How exactly would that happen? I'm very careful with how I transport my moon clips such that they don't get bent. Specifically, I transport them in a padded case. Can you think of a better way to transport them?
Click to expand...

Hapworth, I just don't have your diplomacy and I don't suffer fools well.

@KJS - While I doubt that it was your moon clips, it is a valid question because it is a possibility. You seem to be too busy venting your spleen to give us the necessary details to help you.

Please define "fell apart", tell us exactly what broke, fell off etc.

Please tell us if you did check the strain screw and if so, did that remedy the problem?

And yes, the moon clips could very easily have become damaged since your first use. Damage does not usually occur in transport. Damage most often happens during the removal of empty cases and the insertion of live rounds into the moon clips. If you were doing this without tools specifically designed for that purpose, you could very well have caused damage that would result in light primer strikes.

Also carrying clips in a padded soft case could easily result in damage should that case get folded over in your range bag. Try a pill bottle or a post...

ifo4s1.jpg


Hope this helps, but I doubt it.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
 
I've owned 4 new S&W revolvers, and now I only own 1.
My Governor is the only one that I've not had problems with in either performance or fitting.
Also, no longer own any new Rugers.
 
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