19ontheslide
Member
-- Actually the revolver in question is chambered in 9mm, so yes...it does use clips.
Quality Control Department
- Thread starter KJS
- Start date
-- Actually the revolver in question is chambered in 9mm, so yes...it does use clips.
ok, I was wrong……when I hear the term "clip" used, I think of a removable magazine……google definition,
"A clip is a device that is used to store multiple rounds of ammunition together as a unit, ready for insertion into the magazine or cylinder of a firearm. This speeds up the process of loading and reloading the firearm as several rounds can be loaded at once, rather than one round being loaded at a time. Several different types of clips exist, most of which are made of inexpensive metal stampings that are designed to be disposable, though they are often re-used.
The defining difference between clips and magazines is the presence of a feed mechanism in a magazine, typically a spring-loaded follower, which a clip lacks."……
once again, I don't own any 7 shot revolvers, or any that use "clips"
Semper Fi!
"A clip is a device that is used to store multiple rounds of ammunition together as a unit, ready for insertion into the magazine or cylinder of a firearm. This speeds up the process of loading and reloading the firearm as several rounds can be loaded at once, rather than one round being loaded at a time. Several different types of clips exist, most of which are made of inexpensive metal stampings that are designed to be disposable, though they are often re-used.
The defining difference between clips and magazines is the presence of a feed mechanism in a magazine, typically a spring-loaded follower, which a clip lacks."……
once again, I don't own any 7 shot revolvers, or any that use "clips"
Semper Fi!
This is seriously your argument for why their quality control isn't up to par? They already have higher prices than many other gun makers and they still can't manage to make a gun that fires! Nor a gun that doesn't literally fall apart on its first range visit.
I guess I'm just being too picky to expect a gun to actually fire. I apologize. The next time a woman is attacked by a rapist or a man is about to be beaten to death by a gang of thugs, they can not-so-confidently reach for their S&W where the motto is "Hey, it might fire."
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Your frustration is understandable, but you're way out of proportion at this point. Contrary to your assertion, they make hundreds of thousands of guns a year that fire just fine, repeatedly so.
Some lemons escape the plant; you got one. It sucks but there's remedy: hold S&W accountable until they repair it properly on their dime. They'll do it.
I am not arguing with you at all.
No company can produce 100% perfect products 100% of the time. It is not possible.
By pointing out some facts and asking you a simple question I was trying to show how expensive it would be to get closer to being perfect.
Just because YOU got a bad firearm does not indicate that S&W's QC is not up to par. Let S&W take care of it.
No one wants to be the person that gets a bad one, but it will occur. I have had firearms with problems, I got them fixed. I also had LOTS more firearms without problems.
Oh, but you will someday.
Perfectionists & Accountants
It would seem reasonable to expect S&W to test fire a new revolver with more than 1 round. The old revolvers all came with 3 dirty cylinders from test firing. This presents S&W with 2 failure modes -- according to KJS post:
1: My new revolver had 'X' dirty cylinders and the face of the cylinder was "burned" on 'X' places.
2: My revolver doesn't fire every time I pull the trigger, it fires 4 of 7 rounds. Are your moon clips defective?
If S&W uses the Customer as the final QC inspector, then buy a used S&W revolver -- they are cheaper, been through at least one final customer inspection, and have already been back to the factory for repair.
Manufacturing and finance do not have the same functional philosophy. Money has to balance to the penny or you have an accounting error. Manufacturing will accept a product that is "within specifications" and ship it to the customer without concern about producing a perfect product. The REAL goal is product that is within specification.
When was the last time S&W paid a dividend? Don't believe it has happened yet regardless of the profit margins. I bought S&W for less than $3 per share and was quite happy to sell at $8.50 per share.
As a happily retired practical mechanical engineer, cost accountants and perfectionists pushed me close to the edge more than once in my career. It would have been nice if they talked to each other more, and me a lot less. Now every one remain calm and don't let your delicate side get riled up over someone else's problem.
This horse is dead (after many similar threads), but let the flogging continue.
It would seem reasonable to expect S&W to test fire a new revolver with more than 1 round. The old revolvers all came with 3 dirty cylinders from test firing. This presents S&W with 2 failure modes -- according to KJS post:
1: My new revolver had 'X' dirty cylinders and the face of the cylinder was "burned" on 'X' places.
2: My revolver doesn't fire every time I pull the trigger, it fires 4 of 7 rounds. Are your moon clips defective?
If S&W uses the Customer as the final QC inspector, then buy a used S&W revolver -- they are cheaper, been through at least one final customer inspection, and have already been back to the factory for repair.
Manufacturing and finance do not have the same functional philosophy. Money has to balance to the penny or you have an accounting error. Manufacturing will accept a product that is "within specifications" and ship it to the customer without concern about producing a perfect product. The REAL goal is product that is within specification.
When was the last time S&W paid a dividend? Don't believe it has happened yet regardless of the profit margins. I bought S&W for less than $3 per share and was quite happy to sell at $8.50 per share.
As a happily retired practical mechanical engineer, cost accountants and perfectionists pushed me close to the edge more than once in my career. It would have been nice if they talked to each other more, and me a lot less. Now every one remain calm and don't let your delicate side get riled up over someone else's problem.
This horse is dead (after many similar threads), but let the flogging continue.
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True, but I hope it's from old age and not a defective firearm!!
Pizza Bob
Member
You are really giving KJS the benefit of the doubt. There is no credible evidence that he did indeed get a lemon, or two. All we have are his hyperbolic claims, an off-the-wall rant at S&W and no follow-up as to what the problems actually were.
I suspect that the gun that "fell apart" actually had some screws come loose. Recoil impulse can do that. I routinely check screw tightness when I clean my revolvers. I've still have had screws back out to the extent that in the middle of a reload, during an IDPA stage, I found myself holding the cylinder and crane assembly in my left hand and the remainder of the firearm in my right. Crane screw backed out - S&W's fault? I don't think so, but I bet KJS would.
We still don't know whether it was a simple tightening of the strain screw that fixed his light strike dilemma, and may never since he was in such a rush to condemn all things S&W - he probably sent it off before he checked the easy things first.
He also seems to not realize that one of the functions of a forum such as this is for the more knowledgeable to mentor those that are just learning about their firearms - a place to garner knowledge. His initial post and his responses border on "trollism".
I didn't start out to make this a personal attack on KJS, but as I read through this thread, it seems that it has imparted very little constructive information and a lot of vitriol. I apologize to the forum if you think I am out of line.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
nipperdog
Member
Sorry to hear about your bad luck with your new Revolver. I bought a new S&W 69 revolver last month. Since receiving it I have fired a couple of Hundred full power .44 Magnum Rounds. The Revolver has performed as designed with no problems. It is highly accurate, and I am quite pleased with it. Looks like you just got a Lemon. Send it back until you get it fixed properly.
Agreed, literally, with every word you posted. My purpose was to politely try to ameliorate an increasingly emotional and combative series of replies from OP with a reiteration of fact and refocus on a simple, neutral solution.
I check screws regularly, too -- mine, and others if they'll let me.
Good post, but as you said, we won't have seen the last of it and similar threads. People (consumers) will always expect perfection but be unwilling to pay for it - or even agree on what it is.
Moon clips that are no more than 2 months old and which all worked just fine the last time I used them within the last 2 weeks have magically become defective? How exactly would that happen? I'm very careful with how I transport my moon clips such that they don't get bent. Specifically, I transport them in a padded case. Can you think of a better way to transport them?
Try discussing this like a rational adult on a friendly enthusiasts' forum.
Sarcastic words like "magically" and challenging fellow members to devise better solutions to how you transport your clips doesn't serve you or this thread.
Replying to honest, neutrally asked questions as if they are personal attacks is rapidly yielding diminishing returns for the discussion.
What did S&W cite as the cause of your first problem with the revolver and what was their fix?
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Terms,
Clip not correct.
It's stripper clip it holds the bullets/ammo in a fixed / captured straight line. There is a notch in the bolt or receiver to load the stripper clip into then the bullets are pushed straight down into the magazine. Then the stripper clip can be removed and the bolt returned to full battery.
Stripper Clip refers to a semi auto gun. There are semi auto rifles and pistols that use stripper clips for loading.
The detachable magazine holds the bullets captured inside it. It's spring loaded so it pushes the rounds up so the bolt can load them into full battery their can be a semi auto or a bolt action gun.
Clip not correct.
It's stripper clip it holds the bullets/ammo in a fixed / captured straight line. There is a notch in the bolt or receiver to load the stripper clip into then the bullets are pushed straight down into the magazine. Then the stripper clip can be removed and the bolt returned to full battery.
Stripper Clip refers to a semi auto gun. There are semi auto rifles and pistols that use stripper clips for loading.
The detachable magazine holds the bullets captured inside it. It's spring loaded so it pushes the rounds up so the bolt can load them into full battery their can be a semi auto or a bolt action gun.
All correct for certain semiautos and bolt actions.
For revolvers, such as the 986 discussed in this thread, "moon clip" -- often reduced simply to "clip" -- is the correct terminology.
Pizza Bob
Member
Hapworth, I just don't have your diplomacy and I don't suffer fools well.
@KJS - While I doubt that it was your moon clips, it is a valid question because it is a possibility. You seem to be too busy venting your spleen to give us the necessary details to help you.
Please define "fell apart", tell us exactly what broke, fell off etc.
Please tell us if you did check the strain screw and if so, did that remedy the problem?
And yes, the moon clips could very easily have become damaged since your first use. Damage does not usually occur in transport. Damage most often happens during the removal of empty cases and the insertion of live rounds into the moon clips. If you were doing this without tools specifically designed for that purpose, you could very well have caused damage that would result in light primer strikes.
Also carrying clips in a padded soft case could easily result in damage should that case get folded over in your range bag. Try a pill bottle or a post...
Hope this helps, but I doubt it.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
I've developed both over many decades living with myself.
