Question about C&R

[tatume]

Hello Folks,

My license arrived today. It is printed on a sheet of 8.5"x11" paper, with the license on the top half and other information on the bottom half. There are four fields for me to complete.

Q1 - Is it correct that I should never sign the original, only copies?
Q2 - What goes in the field "Position/Title?" On the application this was "collector."
Q3 - I presume it's okay to fill in the "Printed Name" field?
Q4 - Is it correct that I should never fill in the date on the original, only on copies?
Q5 - On the bottom half of the sheet there is a "Cut Here" card labeled "Federal Firearms License (FFL) Information Card." What is it good for?

Now my search for a 38/44 Outdoorsman, or 44 HE First, Second, or Third Model Target begins in earnest.

Thanks, Tom

 

[Dave_n]

Make multiple copies of the "unsigned" 03, preferably in color, or do as I do, scan in color, save as a pdf and then simply print the unsigned copies as needed, then you sign in front of the person you are buying from if face to face, or sign a copy and send it with your payment if remote. The seller will send a signed copy of their 01 or 03 license back with the gun.

Again, do not sign the original, only copies. No other info is necessary as it is already on your original 03. I always ask for a photocopy of their DL if a remote sale, and you offer to send yours in return. Dave_n

 

[Rambler42]

I do the same as Dave

Q5. It is a reference card you can carry in your wallet. Pretty much useless.

 

[Glashaus]

Yep, what Dave said

 

[glowe]

I have had mine for a few decades and always sign the original, plus also complete the other 3 lines. Have no idea why I should not do this????

Make copies as needed and have never been asked to sign a copy in the presence of a buyer or seller?? Please tell me why I should not sign the original?

 

[H Richard]

Yes, just cut the lower half off and keep copies of the license itself. I agree with all the above, and don't sign any until I actually use it. I carry one in my wallet as well as a half dozen in the notebook I take with me to all auctions. I do scan the license and save a copy that I can email to on line purchases. I usually print off a dozen copies, and not too often do I need to make more during the three years.

 

[quinn]

I signed the original. I fold the bottom (useless half) under then lay my DL and LTC underneath and the scanner and make my copy. When I actually use the copy by mail or in person, I put the current date on it. BTW, get the computer version of the Bound Book pages. Can't remember where I got the spreadsheet blank but if you can't find it on line PM me your email and I'll send a copy.

 

[kscharlie]

I do not mark the original in any way.

I make two copies of the original on our color Epson 3-in-1, save one as a jpeg file and one as a pdf file. I then print one of them in color, complete all the blanks, and make two more copies of this version. Again, saving one as a jpeg and one as a pdf.

When I use the license to purchase a gun on-line, I can either email the seller a filled out copy, either jpeg or pdf, depending on the sellers preference, or mail a filled out copy to the seller. This depends on how the gun is paid for. Credit card, the license gets emailed. Check or money order, a printed copy is included in the envelope.

When I use the license to purchase face to face, I start with a blank copy and fill it out in the presence of the seller.

Whenever I go on a trip with the possibility of looking at/buying a firearm, I always carry printed copies of both versions with me. I also always have my laptop with me so I can access saved copies if needed. You can also put them on a thumb drive and carry that. Most gun shops have a computer with a usb drive and a printer if needed.

One thing that has not been mentioned, in all cases, you should print in large letters somewhere on the license "File Copy Only". This effectively stops the possibility of your license being used by someone else with fewer scruples than you might have.

Example attached...

 

[Gunhacker]

I agree, putting "File Copy Only" on the license is a must in my opinion, I even had a self-inking (red) rubber stamp made when Vistaprint.com had them on sale, and I stamp the license copy multiple times... leaving no doubt.

Also, now that you have your C&R FFL, use it to sign up with Brownell's and you will get dealer pricing.

 

[glowe]

"File Copy Only" FFLs can be used by you, so why can't anyone use the same "File Copy Only"? Doesn't make sense. My guess is that you are expected to complete and sign the form, once received, and copy it for use. Nobody has stated where the rules state otherwise??

I have never been challenged by anyone anywhere for presenting a completed form. Nor have I been asked for a drivers license and a form at the same time as the FFL. If anyone steals a copy of your 03 FFL, they can sign it since no one challenges you for proof of signature and it matters little if it says it is a copy because no one cares about that either.

If I only signed copies before use, I would for sure sooner or later forget to sign and send it off. Then have to do it all over again. Does the word paranoia comes to mind here???

 

[Doc44]

In answer to Q2, I use Collector.

Bill

 

[sbrmike]

I also use Collector for the title.

You Do NOT sign the original, because the copies that you give or send require an original signature. This has been modified a bit if transmitted electronically, but it is still a requirement for hard copies. You do not Date the original either.

 

[ramprat]

C & R Question?

"File Copy Only" FFLs can be used by you, so why can't anyone use the same "File Copy Only"? Doesn't make sense. My guess is that you are expected to complete and sign the form, once received, and copy it for use. Nobody has stated where the rules state otherwise??

I have never been challenged by anyone anywhere for presenting a completed form. Nor have I been asked for a drivers license and a form at the same time as the FFL. If anyone steals a copy of your 03 FFL, they can sign it since no one challenges you for proof of signature and it matters little if it says it is a copy because no one cares about that either.

If I only signed copies before use, I would for sure sooner or later forget to sign and send it off. Then have to do it all over again. Does the word paranoia comes to mind here???

I signed and dated my original FFL 03 the day I received it. When I use it for purchases, whether FTF or online, I provide the seller with a copy that I sign and date across the face of the license. Never had a problem doing it this way.
Gary

 

[deadin]

Does the word paranoia comes to mind here???

When you couple it with "Cabelas Gun Library" it does.
I once had failed to sign a copy and they almost had a cow. I got a call several days later and had to send them a signed copy.....


As for the wallet sized "Information Card", it does have the phone number that can be used to verify the C&R License. However it is only usable during working hours (I believe Eastern Time Zone)....

 

[glowe]

Dean, I was referring to not signing of the original FFL when received. I see no logical reason not to do so and then you will never have the problem as you did with Cabelas sending unsigned copies. Also, an original signature has not been required since the BATF now allows photo copies and electronic copies to be used. How can one FAX or email a form with an original signature.

BTW, I have never found any reference in the BATF FFL regulations or documentation stating that copies, in person or electronic, need an original signature, but have to say that I have never found reference that the FFL holder has to complete the form when received either??

 

[sbrmike]

You might try reading the fine print on the C&R license itself. It says to make copies and that the copies require an original signature of the FFL holder. I I believe years ago, when we got hard copy regs there was a letter with the license telling you how to use it as well.

 

[tatume]

You might try reading the fine print on the C&R license itself. It says to make copies and that the copies require an original signature of the FFL holder. I I believe years ago, when we got hard copy regs there was a letter with the license telling you how to use it as well.

Yes, and it is underlined as well. I suppose that supports the idea that the original shouldn't be dated either, as a current date is supporting evidence that the signature was applied at the same time.

 

[tatume]

Thank you everyone for your helpful discussions.

 

[glowe]

You might try reading the fine print on the C&R license itself. It says to make copies and that the copies require an original signature of the FFL holder. I I believe years ago, when we got hard copy regs there was a letter with the license telling you how to use it as well.

I asked that question early on here and you are the only one who actually said there was a printed statement to that effect, thanks for that. So the exception is a FAX and email FFL is acceptable, but obviously not original signature. Interesting that in 25 years, no one who took my 03-FFL asked for an original signature??? I have three business's FFL copies to use for non-C&R guns. Checked them and they all are copies without original signatures?

 

[ken158]

You might try reading the fine print on the C&R license itself. It says to make copies and that the copies require an original signature of the FFL holder. I I believe years ago, when we got hard copy regs there was a letter with the license telling you how to use it as well.

What was said here was also told to me by an ATF examiner. NEVER sign the original copy. Was also told to note “owner” in title. Send out copies for a purchase with an original signature, date and title.

 

[magmag]

The "info card" is your official BBQ id!

 

[sbrmike]

My friend had a very good color copy of is 01, Dealer FFL prominently displayed in his shop and a BATFE examiner about had a cow. He admonished him to never sign the original and that the original should be secured and that a copy of his license was to be displayed. My friend showed him the unsigned original and all was well.

Yes things have relaxed a bit recently (right or wrong), many guys figure if they can fax or emai a copied signature that a photocopy signature will do as well face to face or snail mail.

I can remember other FFL holders requesting the signature be any color but black, because they feared BATFE examiners mistaking the original signature for a xerox copy. One shop here had a red pen specifically for guys to sign their FFL with. I used the pen, signed my FFL, and then filled out and signed my check with it. He had a cow because he said the scanner at the bank couldn't read red. I know that has nothing to do with the discussion but you had to be there. Different times.

 

[larryofcc]

Not to change the subject, but it is not a widely known fact that in a machine gun friendly state, you can actually buy a Class 3 machine gun with a C&R. Has to be 50 years or older and that takes in all of WW2 and Korea.
I know this as I bought,and legally registered, a 1943 Savage Thompson SMG. Class 3 dealer said I could not do it, but I have now owned that SMG for near 20 years. I did have to pay the $200 tax. Big Larry