question about legacy 357 magnum ammo

[agent00]

I am the lucky owner of the model 27-2 in the meantime I have metioned in the other ammo question thread.

I have only shot some 158 grain rounds so far and it was fun.

I know have semi historical/practical question.

For potential sef defense use I intersting in getting some 125 sjh rounds if I can locate them here in Austria

The legacy loads that gave the 357 mag it's reuptuation would be particualry interesting.

Is the 125 grain 357 mag round from federal of the power shock line the same as the famous 357b load. Or is the 357b load different?

I am also curious if the 125 grain load from remington is the same as the loads sold in the 1970s and 1980s?

 

[Alk8944]

I can't tell you what would be available to you in Austria, or anything about the 125gr. Remington load that would have been available 30-40 years ago.

The original .357 Magnum load was a 158 gr. Lead, lubricated bullet that produced 1,520 FPS +/- from an 8 3/4" barrel, which was the maximum length available when the Model 357 Magnum was originally introduced. There is little or no current .357 Magnum ammunition that will generate that sort of velocity. Mid 1,200 FPS to low 1.300 FPS is about all any current ammunition will do in the longest barrels. The other end of the story is that the early 1935 to 1970 or so 158 gr. Lead commercial ammunition in this caliber caused leading that was terrible and difficult to remove. Barrels would be badly leaded in as little as 12 to 20 rounds! Believe this, I was shooting .357 beginning in 1960 with that ammunition and did it cause leading!

You should have Norma, Fiocchi, Geco and Browning ammunition available I believe. Any of those should be good choices for the best performance with .357 Magnum. You said you wanted "legacy" loads. My interpretation of that would be 158 gr. Lead as above, not any 125 gr. load. 158 gr. has always been the 'standard-for-caliber' bullet weight for .357.

 

[stansdds]

The big issue with the 125 grain bullets in 357 Magnum was cracking of the thin forcing cones in the K-frame revolvers. The N-frame has a very thick forcing cone and no flat, very thin spot for cylinder crane clearance. The L-frame also has a fairly thick forcing cone and no flat spot. I would not be worried about cracking the forcing cone on an L- or N-frame 357. You will still get more forcing cone erosion with full power 125 grain loads than you will with heavier bullets, but the thicker forcing cone is unlikely to crack. As to what constitutes full power 125 grain 357 Magnum, it is any load advertised as 1400-1450 fps from a 4 inch test barrel. Many 125 grain loads today are loaded to not more than 1300 fps and are effective and easier on the revolver.

 

[Yendor357]

What is a 125 going to do for you that a 158 JHP will not? I've never had a 158 fail.

If the 158s over penetrate, go with a hot 38 Special load.

 

[WR Moore]

I have to agree with Alk8944's description of the original .357 load being a lead bullet that left significant leading in the barrel. Despite a few attempts over the years at coating the bullet, 6 rounds makes your rifling disappear.

In the interests of accuracy, the racy velocities claimed for .357 Magnum velocities used to be fired in very carefully made test barrels of a length specified by whoever designed the cartridge. In the case of the .357 Magnum, that was 10 inches if testing according to SAAMI protocols.

Also, in the same days long gone, chronographs (or ballistic pendulums) were owned by ammunition companies, some test labs and governments. The rest of us had to accept the claims. Once chronographs became more widely available, it became obvious that the factory specs were....optimistic. SAAMI then required all handgun ammunition to be fired in barrels of realistic length, revolver test barrels have vents to simulate the barrel/cylinder gap. Velocities "dropped", but not because of actual ammunition changes. At least until piezo-electric pressure testing became standard.

OK, the old Remington product code for the 125 gr SJHP is R357M1, that of the Golden Saber version is GS357MA. Remington was dismantled in bankruptcy and the ammunition division snapped up by a competitor, the production was relocated. One would assume that the products are very similar. BTW, a number of US ammunition companies were recently purchased by CZ. I believe the actual owner holds things privately.

Federal product labeling often changes not necessarily by product, but packaging. For example, the 38G 158 gr .38 Spl +P load is available so labeled in white boxes. It might also designate that it's flash suppressed. If you poke around on the Federal website, you might be able to find 357B. A quick look shows what seems to be the current equivalent listed as TP357VHP1. There will also be a Federal Law Enforcement website you can explore-if you can find it.

There's also a US ammunition source ammunitiontogo.com. You might explore that to check labeling.

 

[agent00]

What is a 125 going to do for you that a 158 JHP will not? I've never had a 158 fail.

If the 158s over-penetrate, go with a hot 38 Special load.

Nothing wrong with the 158-grain loads. For indoor self-defense, a .38 special 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point round would be the best choice.

My interest in the 125 sjhp rounds is more academic. I am just curious if it still possible to get a similar ammo that gave the 357 mag its reputation.

From a practical point of view, there is no real need to get my hands on that stuff.

 

[Alk8944]

d would be the best choice.

My interest in the 125 sjhp rounds is more academic. I am just curious if it still possible to get a similar ammo that gave the 357 mag its reputation.

As I said above, the 158 gr. bullet is what gave the .357 Magnum it's reputation. Col. Wesson used the gun and Winchester ammunition to take many large animals to prove it's effectiveness. This included several species, including Brown Bear species in Alaska and occurred in 1935 as I recall.

The 125 gr. JHP loads only date to the 1970s or so and are, therefore, hardly 'vintage' They had the reputation of producing the highest percentage of 1-shot-stops in gun fights. There is little practical difference between the 1970s production and currently produced ammunition, so pick whatever "turns you on".

 

[SWFan27]

I have other brands of top shelf 357 magnum ammo in my safe such as Buffalo Bore, Underwood and Hornady. But I keep mine loaded with the Remington SJHP 125 Grain 357 Mag. This is the stuff that had a 96% "one shot stop" rating with law enforcement back when revolvers were king of the street.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkX5SVdTE9M&t=575s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkX5SVdTE9M&t=575s[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIDtYdI23yA"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIDtYdI23yA[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8WNQxIjutc&t=326s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8WNQxIjutc&t=326s[/ame]

 

[Doug M.]

When I was coming up in firearms and LE as a student in the late 70s, it was in fact the 125 grain loads, mostly IIRC the Remington SJHP (aka "rose petal") that updated the .357's reputation. I had some. Pretty rank, but every test of it I saw it was a hell of a round. How it would do in the modern standards I don't know.

 

[SWFan27]

Nothing wrong with the 158-grain loads. For indoor self-defense, a .38 special 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point round would be the best choice.

My interest in the 125 sjhp rounds is more academic. I am just curious if it still possible to get a similar ammo that gave the 357 mag its reputation.

From a practical point of view, there is no real need to get my hands on that stuff.

The Remington SJHP 125 grain 357 magnum load is still rated at 1450 FPS. I posted some YouTube videos that you may have already seen before of the round being tested. My stuff is loaded with it, and I sleep easier at night.

There is a performance difference between semi-jacketed hollow point and a jacketed hollow point. I prefer the old school round when the lives of my family and myself are depending on it.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Federal

Congratulations on the new revolver!
I do not remember a Federal 125 grain load called power shock. There was a 158 grain Federal Power Point we used for hunting whitetail deer.it was very effective in heavy brush. It was a semi jacketed soft point.
That means a lead tip no hollow point.
The legendary police round was the Federal 125 semi jacketed hollow point.
My personal preference for my Model 28 Highway Patrolman, was the Winchester 145 gran silver tip hollow point.

Veil Spas!
BrianD

 

[shawn mccarver]

The original ".357" Magnum load delivered a 158 grain bullet at 1,510 fps. Buffalo Bore still makes that load if you want to see what the original is like.

The 125 grain load you are referring to is a 125 JHP at 1,400 fps. It was effective at one-shot-stops on humans. It does have noticeable recoil, but it is not particularly effective on large game. Remember, a human being is about like a deer in terms of stopping power, and a deer is not a particularly large or tough animal.

My recommendation is that if you want to experience something close to the original real .357 Magnum load, you want Buffalo Bore:

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo
158 gr. J.H.C. @ 1,475 fps / M.E. 763 ft lbs
20 Round Box

ITEM 19C

This load puts the 125 grain load to shame in terms of pure fun!

 

[SWFan27]

The original ".357" Magnum load delivered a 158 grain bullet at 1,510 fps. Buffalo Bore still makes that load if you want to see what the original is like.

The 125 grain load you are referring to is a 125 JHP at 1,400 fps. It was effective at one-shot-stops on humans. It does have noticeable recoil, but it is not particularly effective on large game. Remember, a human being is about like a deer in terms of stopping power, and a deer is not a particularly large or tough animal.

My recommendation is that if you want to experience something close to the original real .357 Magnum load, you want Buffalo Bore:

Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo
158 gr. J.H.C. @ 1,475 fps / M.E. 763 ft lbs
20 Round Box

ITEM 19C

This load puts the 125 grain load to shame in terms of pure fun!

The Buffalo Bore 125 grain rated at 1700 FPS is a heck of a round also. I have some in my safe. Sam here in the video calls the round the Grim Reaper.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8_kAQWwBU&t=980s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8_kAQWwBU&t=980s[/ame]

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I am the lucky owner of the model 27-2 in the meantime I have metioned in the other ammo question thread.

Is the 125 grain 357 mag round from federal of the power shock line the same as the famous 357b load. Or is the 357b load different?

I am also curious if the 125 grain load from remington is the same as the loads sold in the 1970s and 1980s?

When I was a Policeman starting in the 1970s, we were authorized 357 Magnum and the 357 Magnum 125 grain load. The Federal and Remington both were ranked #1 for stopping power. I started with the Federal but today the Remington is easier to locate.

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the further information guys. I learned many new things.

@SWfan27 thanks for sharing your test videos. They are interesting.

@all thanks for the many new recommended loads to check out.

I am especially curious about the 158 grain loads.

If I want to the 125 sjhp route the remington load available here in Austria.

@Brian Parrish My apologies. The 357 mag ammo from federal I meant is called High Schok und not Power Shok.

 

[shawn mccarver]

The Buffalo Bore 125 grain rated at 1700 FPS is a heck of a round also. I have some in my safe. Sam here in the video calls the round the Grim Reaper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8_kAQWwBU&t=980s

And he would be right! Very grim and very much a reaper. One thing is certain, as one of my friends say, you never have to go around front to see if any Buffalo Bore round just went off!

 

[Doug M.]

If you can get the Remington 125 grain I would expect it to be amply powerful with good terminal ballistics and relatively controllable. I usually carry .38 SWC in my M66, but have qualified with the 145 grain Silvertip and would have no problem loading it for serious use. I carried the 175 grain silvertip in my first service weapon, an M58.

 

[SWFan27]

If you can get the Remington 125 grain I would expect it to be amply powerful with good terminal ballistics and relatively controllable. I usually carry .38 SWC in my M66, but have qualified with the 145 grain Silvertip and would have no problem loading it for serious use. I carried the 175 grain silvertip in my first service weapon, an M58.

Were the Winchester Silvertips popular with law enforcement back in the day?

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Were the Winchester Silvertips popular with law enforcement back in the day?

Up until the infamous FBI Shootout Miami 1986. The two Agents who were armed with 9mm pistols had them loaded up Winchester Silvertips. One shot apparently did not penetrate deep enough on one of the perps.

 

[Model19man]

The 357 mag ammo from federal I meant is called High Schok und not Power Shok.

Pretty sure the Federal ammo you are talking about is called Hydra Shok Why Federal's New Hydra-Shok Deep Ammunition Is Optimal for Defense

 

[EMB1980]

Actually, the Federal 357s from the '70s and '80s was called (depending on it's vintage) both "Hi Power" and "Hi-Shok". Some Federal 357B came in red & white boxes. Later boxes were labeled "Hi Power", some weren't. The "Hi-Shok" came in silver boxes. None of the 357B loads were Hydrashock, just simple cup and core hollopoints loaded to 1400+ ft/sec from a 4" revolver. Talk about a loud report and bright flame if fired at dusk/night! Only Federal's 180 gr JHP 44 Maggie's were brighter!

 

[stansdds]

Yep, Federal's Hi Shok was a basic hollow point, in that it had a hollow cavity in the nose of the bullet and nothing else. Hydra Shok came later and those bullets had a lead post in the center of the hollow cavity.

 

[Model19man]

Yep, Federal's Hi Shok was a basic hollow point, in that it had a hollow cavity in the nose of the bullet and nothing else. Hydra Shok came later and those bullets had a lead post in the center of the hollow cavity.

No idea I did a Google search for the OP's version and I came up short. Your version makes sense!

 

[elpac3]

Starting on the street back in the very early 70's, many of the guys were carrying the Winchester 158 grainers. As noted, these were a lead bullet with a goldfish color that would lead up a revolver in six rounds.

We made the switch to super vel ammo, specifically the 137 grain load. Preformed well and had the ability to penetrate windshield and car doors.

Other departments went with the 110 grain hollow points but these showed penetration issues and tended to be a rather fragile round. Ultimately most agencies moved to the 125 grain HP.

 

[EMB1980]

Federal doesn't currently list the 357B, not even in a 20 round box (they used to have them packaged like that a few years back).
But....they do list their TP357VHP1 in their Train & Protect line. This is virtually identical to the 357B, less the nickeled case. Ballistics and bullet construction look identical to the old 357B. They come in 50 round boxes and seem to list for less that most of the "premium" loads.

 

[WR Moore]

Couple of notes here. I was able to get a stock of the Rem 125 gr SJHP bullets for handloading. I discovered that you could back the loads down to ~1250 f/s and still get the terminal delivery with a lot less fuss.

Also, the Silvertip that "didn't go deep enough" in Miami severed the brachial artery. The recipient was a dead man walking, but he wasn't stopped.

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the further information guys.

And yeah with high shok I mean the classic 125 grain jhp rounds and not the hydra shok that were released later.. But the question was already answered by some other posters that know way more about the stuff than I do.

The federal Train und Protect Line looks interesting btw. I will check out if they are avaialble here in Austria.

I still think that the easiest way to some of the classic loads would be the remington route.

Is there a difference between the remington http line and the umc line?

They seem to offer similar loads in 357 mag at different price points..

 

[SWFan27]

Thanks a lot for the further information guys.

And yeah with high shok I mean the classic 125 grain jhp rounds and not the hydra shok that were released later.. But the question was already answered by some other posters that know way more about the stuff than I do.

The federal Train und Protect Line looks interesting btw. I will check out if they are avaialble here in Austria.

I still think that the easiest way to some of the classic loads would be the remington route.

Is there a difference between the remington http line and the umc line?

They seem to offer similar loads in 357 mag at different price points..

The Remington HTP and UMC are the same. The only difference is the casing, and that really makes no difference at all. That is except for Remington charging twice as much for HTP. UMC is brass and HTP is nickel plated. The only problem I have ever had with a Remington load was a high primer with one of their HTP 38+P rounds.

 

[rwsmith]

Very interesting results....

...on the Lucky Gunner website for .357. Several Speer Gold Dots fail to expand and overpenetrate like crazy. I saw an article once that tested bullets out of pistol caliber carbines that tended not to expand, seemingly due to higher velocity than the bullets were designed for. I wonder if that happens in a .357 pistol. So I use SWCs in my PCCs.

Sorry this message is late. Computer went on the fritz.

 

[agent00]

I could test some fioochi 125 grain rounds at the range in the meantime. It was a interesting experience and for target/fun shooting it should be nice ammo if you want to spend the cash for it.

While I do not doubt the power of that round I have to admit that my initial gut feeling and was right and for home defense I will keep my revolver loaded with the good old 158 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point from ppu or remington.