Question about "pre" and screw numbers

[Patrick L]

I totally understand that Smith would use up old frames, parts, etc. long after engineering changes, and that's how you sometimes end up with guns that have earlier features than the model number might suggest. But this is what confuses me.

I have a 4 screw pre 29. How is this possible? As I understand it, model numbers started in 1957-58. The 5th screw was eliminated later, wasn't it 1959-60? So shouldn't ANY 4 screw frame be model marked?

 

[DARE]

Model numbers were announced in 1957, but not implemented until 1958 in most cases. I had a 4 screw pre-29 serial number S179052 that shipped in July 1958. Think the order deleting the 5th screw was in 1955, but again not implemented until later. Think the 1st .44 Magnums shipped in 1956. They had 5 screws. There are many 5 screw and 4 screw pre-29s. There are also 4 screw 29s. Think the 4th screw went away about 1961. I have a 4 screw Model 53 that shipped in May 1961.

 

[Patrick L]

Oh looks like my confusion was over when the 5th screw was deleted.

 

[Hawg Rider]

Yep! My 4-screw .44 Magnum (S177963) shipped in July 1958 (it's shown in an incorrect and much later mahogany presentation case). The SCSW 4th Ed. states that the engineering order to remove the 5th screw was issued in early 1956 (at about s/n S167500; but some 5-screws have been found up to S174000) and 4-screw revolvers began to ship in 1957. 4-screws continued to be shipped as ".44 Magnums" (pre-Model 29s) as late as S184000 without Model 29 stamps in the yoke area. The first Model 29s appeared in 1958, at about s/n S179000. Confused? Join the club!

 

[Doc44]

Directives #486 and #487 to delete the upper side plate screw and add a tongue to the side plate were issued on September 7, 1956. 44 Magnums with a 4-screw frame began to ship in early 1957 at approximately serial number S167500. Model numbers were authorized to be stamped in the yoke cut in June 1957 and the first 44 Magnums stamped MOD-29 appeared in late 1958 at approximately serial number S184000.

The directives to delete the upper side plate screw on K-frame revolvers were issued about a year earlier than for N-frame revolvers. That is why the .357 Combat Magnum was built on the 4-screw frame.

Bill

 

[JSR III]

I think that a lot of the confusion about these issues can be explained by the way that S&W firearms were assembled.

The floor workers, who were basically piece workers, were paid by the pieces that they completed each week. They did not receive one frame at a time but some number like 5 or 10 or maybe more. These guns were not in serial number order and therefore higher numbered guns were possibly assembled before their younger brothers. Multiply this by a number of floor workers and the numbers become completely messed up.

You add to this the method in which completed arms were stored prior to shipping and taken from the "vault" and all kinds of shipping date irregularities can surface.

I am not familiar with the exact inner workings or the order in which different functions occurred however if an engineering change came down to say start stamping a model number on guns on a specific date, the floor worker could possibly have mixed serial numbers on his bench as well as a mix of frames with either 4 or 5 screws.

As Dr. Jinks has stated numerous times, collectors want everything tied up in a red ribbon bow and everything to make some chronological sense. S&W was in the business to make money and they were very good at it. They were not concerned with screw holes or model numbers and only saw that getting inventory assembled and out the door made them money.

This is my take on the subject and others may have a different explanation...

 

[Patrick L]

Thank you all for your replies. Like I said, I guess I was just off on when I thought the 5th screw was deleted. Makes perfect sense now.

The knowledge floating around on this forum is just amazing!

 

[RKmesa]

Thank you all for your replies. Like I said, I guess I was just off on when I thought the 5th screw was deleted. Makes perfect sense now.

The knowledge floating around on this forum is just amazing!

Patrick:

Now you have to post a photo of your 4-screw Pre-29... we would love to see it.

 

[Patrick L]

Here ya go! Looked quick, the only one I could find was this one, sitting next to it's cousin, my pre 25-2 5 screw .45 ACP

 

[AC Man]

For WIW I have a letter on my 4 screw 44 mag no model number, shipped April 1957. I do not have a letter on my 5 screw 44 mag but I have been told shipped 1956.Like others have said, Model numbers were established later around 1958.