Question about shoulder holster usage.

[Neumann]

If you have a belt holster, do you stay on the ground floor so it doesn't point at someone in the floor below?

A weapon in someone's hand point in all directions is something to be concerned about. A holstered, usually safed weapon is not going off by itself. However, the process of holstering is always going to require special care.

 

[9c1 lover]

Wow lots of responses, thanks guys.

One thing I want to point out is the second floor thing, unless its a house 9 times out of 10, the floors in tall buildings are poured concrete, so a firearm pointed down is not gonna go through 10 inches of concrete.

 

[CelticSire]

One thing I want to point out is the second floor thing, unless its a house 9 times out of 10, the floors in tall buildings are poured concrete, so a firearm pointed down is not gonna go through 10 inches of concrete.

True. However, it will most likely ricochet...

 

[Enframe]

I frequently carry a 1911, cocked and locked, in a horizontal shoulder rig. The retention snap lies between the hammer and firing pin. If this is not snapped, the gun will fall out. I make sure it's snapped in place firmly before I take a step. It will not go bang in this condition.

It also has a series 80 firing pin safety. Even if I drop it, it still won't go off, unless three safeties break all at once.

Not anything to get tensed up about. Every man has to know his limitations, as Harry said. JMO

 

[9c1 lover]

True. However, it will most likely ricochet...

Well that would happen on the sidewalk too.

I frequently carry a 1911, cocked and locked, in a horizontal shoulder rig. The retention snap lies between the hammer and firing pin. If this is not snapped, the gun will fall out. I make sure it's snapped in place firmly before I take a step. It will not go bang in this condition.

It also has a series 80 firing pin safety. Even if I drop it, it still won't go off, unless three safeties break all at once.

Not anything to get tensed up about. Every man has to know his limitations, as Harry said. JMO

What's a series 80 firing pin safety, not to jack my own thread, lol. Also what are the 3 safeties you speak of, I'm unfamiliar with the 1911, I do want one bad though.

What about carrying a DAO with no safety like a glock in a horizontal holster, what's your thoughts on that, as these plastic guns are becoming more and more popular with the younger crowd.

A 1911, I'm learning, is not so bad, having 3 safeties and all, but some other guns still have me thinking.

I do want to clarify I'm not trying to get anyone to change their carry or anything like that, it's not for me, but you guys like it so cool, just wanted to talk about it, I was kinda gettin the hint from a few posts, that I should shut up and not worry about others, so I'm sorry if that is how this thread came across. Just a friendly discussion.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

The same thing bothered me at first, but so long as all the other rules are observed, nobody is in danger. It is equivalent to having my gun in the dresser, technically speaking at some point if my .45 magically went off as I walked past, the thin wood wouldn't stop it and I'd have the quickest tracheotomy ever completed. But guns don't magically discharge, the pointing rule applies when the gun is in your hand.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Well that would happen on the sidewalk too.


What's a series 80 firing pin safety, not to jack my own thread, lol. Also what are the 3 safeties you speak of, I'm unfamiliar with the 1911, I do want one bad though.

I assume the third he's referring to is the series 80. The three I know of are the grip safety, the thumb safety, and the right(or left) number 2 digit.

 

[Enframe]

The Kid has it. Thumb Safety, Grip Safety, and Firing Pin Safety, which on a Series 80 weapon, blocks movement of the firing pin unless the trigger moves to the rear enough to operate the FPS up and out of the way.

Your trigger finger is an integral part of the S80 mechanism, as it has to operate the trigger.

 

[Drail]

I think this is an interesting discussion. Personally, horizontal shoulder rigs have never bothered me, either wearing one or working with someone else wearing one. The whole concept of not POINTING a barrel at something you do not want to destroy can be taken too far sometimes. When I did smithing work I had to learn to be very concious of handling guns so none of them EVER got pointed at a customer (or another employee or myself). Then you get into the habit of never allowing a gun to point at another person even when working on a frame that has to barrel, or no trigger, or no cylinder, or no hammer. At some point you start to ask yourself, where do we draw the line between safety and paranoia? If you're driving down a highway behind a truck filled with new S&Ws on their way to the market and they are all laying in boxes with their barrels pointed back at your car do you worry about that fact? I carry DA revolvers in a Galco shoulder rig. The hammer is down and there is a heavy leather strap pinning the hammer down and securing the gun in the holster. I have taken falls including one from a motorcycle onto concrete and the gun never moved, never came out of the holster, or discharged. I don't think there is a real problem there. What does worry me is someone carrying certain types of semi auto pistols cocked and locked horizontally in an old worn out holster with a worn out snap on the retaining strap. If you're going to use a shoulder rig you MUST inspect it carefully for retention and make sure none of the stitching is failing and the snap is tight and snug and takes a little effort to release and that all of the rivets and fasteners are solid.

 

[martywinston]

I've been (editorially) looking into shoulder holsters.

Historically, as I understand it, the first was forged by a blacksmith using a "U" of spring steel wrapped in leather to hold a revolver vertically.

As noted in this thread and elsewhere, a vertical carry is intrinsically safer but with a usual (more or less long-pocket) holster, inconvenient and slow to draw, especially with full-size barrels.

I recently reviewed a SpringTac holster - slit along the bottom so it can hold a rail light - and to my thinking, a good starting point for a vertical-carry holster that, on a shoulder harness, might allow a draw that comes out barrel down in one motion then lets the barrel swing up to acquire its target.

I don't think a shoulder holster is a bad idea but I do think that the current designs of them may account for their relatively low popularity.

 

[MrJT]

Wow... interesting points brought up. It brings up a little hypocracy in a way that I never thought about. Dont point a loaded gun at anything, unless you're carrying in a shoulder holster in which case, it's ok. The comparison of a loaded gun resting on a table pointed at someone and a holstered gun pointed at all the people behind you really made me think.

I don't buy the 2nd floor argument. Like mentioned, the bullet most likely won't even make it through to the next level, and if it does someone needs to be directly underneath you. With the shoulder holster, there is a much longer path through which a bullet could travel, hence a greater chance of someone being in the path.

Sweeping is another thing brought up. You ARE going to sweep. No matter what. Unless you unholster the gun, flip it 180 degrees vertically and have it somehow face right side up (which isn't possible) and then aim it in front of you, you're sweeping. More dangerous than a belt holster indeed. However, this comes down to proper weapon control. Keep your finger off the trigger until on target.

For the record, I will still be wearing my shoulder holster. Although if I see that little girl behind me in the checkout line, I'll probably be turning sideways. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it just aint right. I don't want to point a loaded gun at a girls head, "inert" or not.

 

[Silversmok3]

Wow... interesting points brought up. It brings up a little hypocracy in a way that I never thought about. Dont point a loaded gun at anything, unless you're carrying in a shoulder holster in which case, it's ok. The comparison of a loaded gun resting on a table pointed at someone and a holstered gun pointed at all the people behind you really made me think.

I don't buy the 2nd floor argument. Like mentioned, the bullet most likely won't even make it through to the next level, and if it does someone needs to be directly underneath you. With the shoulder holster, there is a much longer path through which a bullet could travel, hence a greater chance of someone being in the path.

Sweeping is another thing brought up. You ARE going to sweep. No matter what. Unless you unholster the gun, flip it 180 degrees vertically and have it somehow face right side up (which isn't possible) and then aim it in front of you, you're sweeping. More dangerous than a belt holster indeed. However, this comes down to proper weapon control. Keep your finger off the trigger until on target.

For the record, I will still be wearing my shoulder holster. Although if I see that little girl behind me in the checkout line, I'll probably be turning sideways. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it just aint right. I don't want to point a loaded gun at a girls head, "inert" or not.

Unless one lives in a lead lined silo underground , most of us will point our weapons in the direction of another person without our knowledge at some point. If we are to hold to the idea that a horizontal shoulder holster is unsafe on the grounds that the loaded gun is pointing at people behind us, then we are in very deep trouble ever time we visit the gun range.At some point a firearm is briefly pointing at another person between the trunk of your vehicle and the firing line. That is just as unsafe as carrying a pistol in a horizontal rig, as all firearms are loaded whether or not there is ammunition in the weapon.

This is not to say that lasering people intentionally is a good thing under any circumstance, but the safety rules are meant to be a creed of behavior, not a doctrine to be adhered to in the fashion of the Wahabbi sect of Islam. Otherwise gunsmiths would be out of business, and my FFL would have to shut down on account of the display case firearms pointing at the neighboring building.

Insofar as drawing from the shoulder rig is concerned if the weapon must come out on the street one has much bigger concerns than lasering people to the left. That concern will involve putting bullets into another human being to stay alive. So long as the finger does not touch the bang switch until the sights are on the target one need not fear shooting a bystander regardless of where a pistol is kept.

 

[smokey04]

I have ,and use Galco Miami Classic rigs for 1911A1 and N frame Smiths.Now,it is one thing to be handling a gun and point it in the wrong direction,it is another to get paranoid about an innatimate object pointed wherever. Do you climb over the dresser or nightstand because there is a pistol in the drawer?It is hard for me to envision how you can practically conceal a weapon on your person and not have it pointed at somethimg you wouldn't want to shoot.Appendix carry?'Nuff said about that!FBI strong side? Maybe just a buttocks burn. Verticle shoulder rig? Well,that is your hip and leg in the line of the muzzle. Yes, it is true that as Col. Cooper said," any fool can rise to his own level of incompetance". The one I really love is the middle of the back holster for a left hand being used by a right handed hero. Try to tell him that every time he puts his hand between his back and his piece and draws he will sweep the muzzle across some very hard to replace biological "real estate" [spleen, kidneys, liver ,and depending on technique most everything else important to a sexually active person].This discussion can go on forever and it is worth talking and thinking about,but I think this phobia is more driven by competition on ranges where match directors fear[and rightly so] liabilities abound.Meanwhile,carrying is about responsbility and I will be responsible to insure no innocents harmed by my carry mode. When I can't do that I'll have to go back to a bow and arrow or a Louisville Slugger. Just one mans not so humble opinion. Nick

 

[9c1 lover]

Great info guys, I want to bring up, when drawing from a shoulder rig, it's not the sweeping I'm concerned about atthat point but drawing a weapon under stress, and very quickly.

I have seen a lot of videos of guys practicing quick draws and quick shots and then inadvertantly shhot themselves in the leg or foot, if this happens when doing a shoulder rig draw, well you are gonna shoot someone next to you.

Hypothetical, your weapon is on your left side for a right handed draw, your wife is on your left side, a mugger comes you go to draw under complete stress and shoot your wife instead. Stuff like this happens.

Do all the guys here who carry shoulder holsters, do you practice rediculous amounts of time doing a quick draw and fire to make unbelievable muscle memory? Even if you do, stress is a very crazy thing. I would hate to have a situation happen and it then be compounded by the fact I just shot an attacker and my wife too. That would mess with your head for a long time.

Some might say to that, they would move to not have their wife, or child on that side or this or that, but you simply don't know how it would play out.

Some might also say I'm overthinking this, well I think this subject needs some extra thought, thinkgs like this are completely possible.

Becareful guys, just some more things to think about.

Thanks for the small talk. I didn't expect to get this kind/big of a response.

 

[sigp220.45]

I think you're overthinking this. Do you not carry in a strong side holster because if you crank off a round when you draw you might shoot your kid in the stroller in front of you?

You can create a doomsday scenario for anything. I've been carrying in a shoulder holster for over 20 years. Most of the time I've needed my gun I've had it in my hand when the fun began. I've also carried a J-frame in an IWB holster in the appendix area, and have yet to shoot off my own bodily parts.

Anyone carrying a concealed weapon needs to assess their own abilities and act accordingly. Sometimes the right choice might be to not carry at all.

 

[old bear]

"Suh", she said, "would mind awfully much putting your jacket back on? That big ol' pistol is pointed right at mah head."

And now you know why I love the South so much. Ya gotta love a lady like that.

 

[Chromedhearts]

I used a galco horizontal type for a while, years ago, but stopped when my Mother was visiting one day, she made the comment, "I don't like it when that thing is pointed at me." I got to thinking about it and decided I didn't feel good about either; I've been using the old vertical type.

 

[joespapa]

I have ,and use Galco Miami Classic rigs for 1911A1 and N frame Smiths.Now,it is one thing to be handling a gun and point it in the wrong direction,it is another to get paranoid about an innatimate object pointed wherever. Do you climb over the dresser or nightstand because there is a pistol in the drawer?It is hard for me to envision how you can practically conceal a weapon on your person and not have it pointed at somethimg you wouldn't want to shoot.Appendix carry?'Nuff said about that!FBI strong side? Maybe just a bottocks burn. Verticle shoulder rig? Well,that is your hip and leg in the line of the muzzle. Yes, it is true that as Col. Cooper said," any fool can rise to his own level of incompetance". The one I really love is the middle of the back holster for a left hand being used by a right handed hero. Try to tell him that every time he puts his hand between his back and his piece and draws he will sweep the muzzle across some very hard to replace biological "real estate" [spleen, kidneys, liver ,and depending on technique most everything else important to a sexually active person].This discussion can go on forever and it is worth talking and thinking about,but I think this phobia is more driven by competition on ranges where match directors fear[and rightly so] liabilities abound.Meanwhile,carrying is about responsbility and I will be responsible to insure no innocents harmed by my carry mode. When I can't do that I'll have to go back to a bow and arrow or a Loisville Slugger. Just one mans not so humble opinion. Nick

Plus one! In my opinion this discussion is ridiculous !

 

[Gitagun]

I have never liked the idea of the horizontal shoulder holster mainly because it causes an otherwise safe gun handler to deliberately violate a very important rule of safe gun handling. The gun should never be pointed at anything that you are not willing to destroy. This rule should not have an exception for shoulder holsters.

The only shoulder holsters I use are the vertical ones and those only while hunting and usually while open carrying.

There was one time at a seminar when I noticed a guy sitting in front of me with his horizontal shoulder holstered pistol pointed right at me. He had to know that his muzzle was pointed at everyone behind him but obviously didn't care. He just sat smugly and I just moved to a safer area of the room. I was convinced that it wouldn't matter if I has said anything since obviously he thought it was ok to have his gun pointed at people. Incredible!

 

[corgiS&W]

Jacket pocket carry

It occurs to me that if you carry a gun in a jacket pocket [sans holster], it is probably pointing at the lower extremities of someone in front of you.

For my J-frame I have an S&W shoulder holster that points upward, like the one used by Steve McQueen in Bullitt. I have only seen a limited number of this design.

One more thought. Sometimes a shoulder holster is a necessity not a choice. Recent abdominal surgery has made it impossible fro me to use a belt, and suspenders won't support a holster. ;-)

 

[9c1 lover]

Plus one! In my opinion this discussion is ridiculous !

Then don't partake in it, I don't see how it is ridiculous, some people don't like a gun pointed at their head. I don't know the skill level of the guy, or the mechanical safetyness of the gun pointed at my head.

It's a friendly discussion, not a ridiculous one.

Thank you.

 

[smokey04]

9c1, I think what you are missing here is, if properly trained, your finger should NOT be on the trigger until the muzzle is pointed at your target.Yeah,yeah, I know you're going to go to the old "stress"routine and that you might screw up during a stressful moment. Son,that is what training and practice is all about!I have taught Army helicopter pilots to handle emergency maneuvers for 40+ years. It is a fact that a person, when confronted by a dangerous[stressfull] situation, WILL react within the scope and limits of his training and experience. If you're worrying about shooting someone during your draw stroke you need to: 1)seek more and better training, 2) practice more,& 3)re-evaluate your tactics,4) stop carrying a gun. A shoulder holster is NOT a fast draw rig. You cannot out draw the thug with the gun[or knife] already out,and if you choose to "open the ball" by drawing while your family is around you well, let's just say that isn't the smartest thing to do. Horse smoke and gun poop TV shows have people believing that you can draw and fire and save the world,fact is, situational awareness should have your piece in your hand BEFORE you need it and your family seeking distance from you. Yep, I am aware of Department SOPs and Regs. I have served in the Military 23 years and Federal Law Enforcement for 15 or so years and,yes I have been in shooting situations so I think of myself as more practical than fanciful. No offense meant but,sometimes well meaning opinions given forth on the internet are based more on fanciful opinions than practical experience.Suggestion;Read Mas Ayoobs" In the Gravest Extremes" and Jim Cirillos "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", and his "Tales of The Stakeout Squad" and William H.[Bill] Jordans," No Second Place Winner". There are many more books to read that are valuable by Applegate, Askins and a few others .Louis Lamore and Zane Grey are great entertainment reads but they are not primers for serious gunfighting. Before I wear out my weclome[if not already] let me add that all this discussion on a serious topic is beneficial to all of us and gives us all a broader spectum than the "devil may care steely eyed gunfighter" but first and foremost, you want to try to avoid a violent confrontation that will put you and you family in the poorhouse. I leave you all with this," It is great to be able to shoot and prevail in a gunfight BUT it is greater to know when NOT to engage in a gunfight. Again, I make no claim to expertise I just talk from my experience. Nick

 

[MrJT]

I think it's a very interesting thread.

I don't think anyone one has claimed that using a shoulder holster is more dangerous. In any holster, proper control is important. Yes, you need to keep your finger off of the trigger when un-holstering an all that.

All this thread is pointing out is that horizontal shoulder holsters point a loaded gun in an unsafe direction.

We all know it wont go off by itself.

That isn't the point. It's an interesting question:

Why is it unsafe practice to have a loaded weapon pointing at someone EXCEPT when in your holster?

If you honestly can't see the irony, then there's no need trying to explain it anymore. Perhaps there are some who do see it, but don't want to give it any credit because they don't want to speak ill of their preferred method of carry.

Like I said before, I'll keep carrying in my horizontal shoulder holster, but I'm more aware of the direction in which the guns being pointed.

 

[smokey04]

MrJT, a very wise and learned post above. But, I ask again, where does a person carry a weapon,concealed or otherwise that does not pose a threat or an unsafe direction? Just about anyplace you can carry exposes some part of YOUR anatomy to some harm if you are not well trained and practiced,and if you "doomsday what if" you won't be able to come up with a solution to the problem.
I go back to the idea that a properly operating gun ,in good condition in a well designed holster ,is as safe as a gun in your safe at home. The only time danger rears its ugly head is when a draw stroke[your hand] is started. From that point on it is not an equipment question, it IS a training and experience dictate.I have carried for 40 years professionally in the military and in LEO duties, I always preferred strong side FBI carry. I was never a fan of a shoulder holster until I retired and started travelling. I did for a couple of years, in combat flying a helicopter,carry in a M-3 or M-7 chest holster because it was the only way to ensure quick access over the armored chest protector. Nick

 

[norm]

I was at the range one day and a fellow I know slightly showed up with a glock in a shoulder holster. He took the far left position (which relieved me) and went about his business as did I. He called the range hot andd we both were shooting. Soon I heard large amounts of screaming and rushed to help as I thought there had been a terrible accident. Turns out he was practicing fast draw and shot backwards. The bullet passed between his arm and body and went who knows where. He was not seriously injured but was scared pretty bad. That (for what its worth is my only remarkable experience with shoulder holsters)
Norm

 

[smokey04]

Again,to quote Col. Cooper," any fool can reach his own level of incompetence". All of these horror stories seem to be basd on stupity and incompetence", Not a holster design fault. Nick

 

[Minnehaha]

Shoulder Holster Common Sense

I live in Minnesota where we can open or concealed carry. I carry on a daily basis, and often use a shoulder holster when I will be doing a lot of driving, and will be wearing a jacket that will keep the weapon concealed. I have an Alessi Bodyguard rig for my Glock 26, and a Galco Executive Carry for my S&W 649 revolver (the Alessi rig is the best IMHO). They are the most comfortable way to carry when driving or sitting for long periods of time, and give you fast and easy access to the weapon. They are also great for things like taking the dog out at 11 PM in your sweats. Just slip it on under the jacket and you have the weapon and ammo ready to go.

I think that it is important to always keep the weapon concealed when you are in public so you "don't startle the horses." If you are going somewhere where you will need to remove your jacket such as a restaurant, then use a different holster. I carry an IWB in those cases.

In reality, shoulder holsters don't present any more real danger than someone carrying a weapon in a case and moving it around in a group of people. The muzzle will be pointing all over the place, but it won't bother the horses because they can't see it. The real point of being a danger begins when a finger approaches a trigger. I don't think it matters what kind of holster the weapon is in at that point (or what kind of case, briefcase, or fanny pack, etc. that it is in). The weapon is only as safe as the person controlling it.

I do not use shoulder holsters at the range because they do sometimes spook other people and I understand that. It's just common courtesy.

 

[PeterCartwright]

I use mine primarily for days when I'll be in a car a lot. There's NO way I can get to my holstered (IWB) handgun while it's covered by a coat and a seatbelt. The shoulder holster makes great sense. And while I don't like looking at the muzzle of any gun, if it's not in someone's hand, it's not an issue. I'm careful.............but not paranoid.

Precisely. I'm just a civilian, but I choose to use my Rosen Stylemaster Express (for P series Sigs) on vehicle trips. I appreciate the reminders about sweeping during draw. Safety is paramount. Still, I don't think there's the slightest danger in carrying my DA/SA Sigs in this manner when they are properly secured in a holster. I can, however, appreciate how an exposed, horizontally carried firearm would raise anxiety levels for the "pointee".

One more thing: I can't think of a carry system more convenient if one must visit a stall in the men's room.

PC

 

[Coal Man]

WOW who'da thought? I have one more "what if" You are at, say the "ATM" etc. and the thug comes up from behind...a weapon in a horizontel rig IS pointed at the bad guy and while not the best way to get the first shot off I'll take a little powder burn(if any gets out of the holster) in my armpit to dead or harmed by the thug. Also us old heavy set guys the belt holster just makes our pants fall down, very embarassing when everything hits the floor and everything is exposed.
I think there is a great deal of difference to carry vs handling the weapon.