Question for lawyers
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Not a lawyer so no bill will be sent. When I was a young fellow it was sometimes used to address boys in general, usually IF we were being good. 
Erich
Member
They never mentioned it once in those rare times when I was in class during law school, nor on the bar review, nor on the bar exam. However, I was a weird nerd who was all into etiquette and trivia when I was young, and Road Rat's answer is what I understand to be correct.
The real question among those profoundly rare lawyers who discuss (or give a hoot, or know the first thing about) such things is, "Is it proper to call women lawyers 'Esquire'?"
An experienced/smart/tough/"does-her-own-carpentry" lawyer I know used to maintain that the answer is "No" (though I'll note that's not what Wikipedia says). I'd be curious to hear Judith Martin's take and supporting rationale, and I'd probably be willing to go along with it.
That said, I've addressed letters to female attorneys with "Esq." following their names - I have no interest in irritating a colleague just to settle a historical point of trivia.
The real question among those profoundly rare lawyers who discuss (or give a hoot, or know the first thing about) such things is, "Is it proper to call women lawyers 'Esquire'?"
An experienced/smart/tough/"does-her-own-carpentry" lawyer I know used to maintain that the answer is "No" (though I'll note that's not what Wikipedia says). I'd be curious to hear Judith Martin's take and supporting rationale, and I'd probably be willing to go along with it.
That said, I've addressed letters to female attorneys with "Esq." following their names - I have no interest in irritating a colleague just to settle a historical point of trivia.
Alpo
Member
Erich, do you also refer to them as "Honorable"?
"The Honorable Susan Smith, Esq."
"The Honorable Susan Smith, Esq."
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
I've always thought of "Esq." used after a lawyers name to be a pretty useless affectation that told me worlds about the lawyer using it. Kinda like some of the ones who insist on calling themselves "Dr." because they have a Juris Doctorate. While we're on it I also hate it when I call a lawyer and am told that "attorney Jones" will be with you in a minute. That's someone who is fairly insecure in his position. I know they are an attorney-that's why I'm calling them. Calling one "Mr. or Mrs." is all the formality that is needed. If a lawyer takes offense at that-they are not a lawyer that I would trust with my affairs. If you know me or are a client-my first name is fine. If formality is in order, a simple Mr. will suffice. My letterhead simply has my name with the notation "Lawyer" below it. I don't have a wall with all my diplomas and licenses on it. I figure that if people are in my office to see me, they already know that I am a lawyer and don't need to see it plastered all over my wall.
PS to all you LEO's- I also know what "Counselor" means.
PS to all you LEO's- I also know what "Counselor" means.
Alnamvet68
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It was how we were addressed at Fordham Prep....and we weren't lawyers.
lonejacklarry
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PS to all you LEO's- I also know what "Counselor" means.
Rats! We're busted!
Erich
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Only where their job/former job (judge, governor, ambassador, etc.) justifies it. Historically, British etiquette made no distinction for gender with this appellation.
handejector
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You mean it means 'Wikipedia'???
I like that.
Not even your huntin license and duck stamp?
I'm dyin' ta know that 'un. Can't remember ever hearing it.PS to all you LEO's- I also know what "Counselor" means.
PM me if you need to....
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A monkey, but not YOUR monkey.
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keith44spl
Member
Lee, I use that term all the time in court....."As a term of endearment"
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A monkey, but not YOUR monkey.
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Mcwsky09
Member
Arnold Rimmer - BSC - SSC
BSC - Bronze Swimming Certificate
SSC - Silver Swimming Certificate
Arnold Rimmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Some of those honorifics do come off as arrogant or self-aggrandizing and even more so if you insist on people using as opposed to people using the title after you demonstrated that you have earned it.
I have heard that it is very hard to get into law school - and even harder to get out.
BSC - Bronze Swimming Certificate
SSC - Silver Swimming Certificate
Arnold Rimmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Some of those honorifics do come off as arrogant or self-aggrandizing and even more so if you insist on people using as opposed to people using the title after you demonstrated that you have earned it.
I have heard that it is very hard to get into law school - and even harder to get out.
Caj, does anyone ever call and want to speak to "Mr. Caj"?
At the university where I taught for almost 30 years, you'd find professors who insisted they be addressed as "doctor" or "professor." Personally, that shows me one of two things: 1) they're either pretty insecure or 2) they're graduates Summa Cum Laude in the field of Pomposity...or perhaps both. And yes, I was a full professor, but, by golly, I'll be darned if I ever let my students know that. Just as long as the payroll office knew.
I figure if they don't respect you for what you know, they sure as heck won't respect you just because you have some piece of paper tacked up on your wall.
One of my sons happened to hear one of my students address me as "doctor," so he very diplomatically took her aside and said, "If you want to stay on my dad's good side, you don't want to be calling him 'doctor.' He figures if he can call you by your first name, you can call him by his."
In my way of thinking, those types of titles are nothing more than "union cards." In other words, if you want to practice law, you have to get a law degree. If you want to teach at a university, you get a Ph.D. If you want to be a pompous nerndy, you insist people call you by that stupid title.
I figure if they don't respect you for what you know, they sure as heck won't respect you just because you have some piece of paper tacked up on your wall.
One of my sons happened to hear one of my students address me as "doctor," so he very diplomatically took her aside and said, "If you want to stay on my dad's good side, you don't want to be calling him 'doctor.' He figures if he can call you by your first name, you can call him by his."
In my way of thinking, those types of titles are nothing more than "union cards." In other words, if you want to practice law, you have to get a law degree. If you want to teach at a university, you get a Ph.D. If you want to be a pompous nerndy, you insist people call you by that stupid title.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Counselor is a term of endearment used by LEO's when addressing defense counsel. It is usually uttered while the LEO is on the stand and is usually spat through clenched teeth. It's meaning is pretty clear to everyone who is within hearing distance. It means "you dripping piece of camel sputum-I hope you die a slow and merciless death as someone flays pieces of skin from your nether region whilst you hang by your thumbs from the tree in the courthouse square." or meanings close to that effect
Comrad
Member
Our resident Bayou Barrister is wise indeed.I've always thought of "Esq." used after a lawyers name to be a pretty useless affectation that told me worlds about the lawyer using it. Kinda like some of the ones who insist on calling themselves "Dr." because they have a Juris Doctorate. While we're on it I also hate it when I call a lawyer and am told that "attorney Jones" will be with you in a minute. That's someone who is fairly insecure in his position. I know they are an attorney-that's why I'm calling them. Calling one "Mr. or Mrs." is all the formality that is needed. If a lawyer takes offense at that-they are not a lawyer that I would trust with my affairs. If you know me or are a client-my first name is fine. If formality is in order, a simple Mr. will suffice. My letterhead simply has my name with the notation "Lawyer" below it. I don't have a wall with all my diplomas and licenses on it. I figure that if people are in my office to see me, they already know that I am a lawyer and don't need to see it plastered all over my wall.
PS to all you LEO's- I also know what "Counselor" means.
In 21 years of practice, I've only seen two members of the Bar hang Esq. after thier name. One was a so-so attorney from a very small town. Nice guy but would never light the world on fire type.
The other fellow grew up in the "hood" in Kansas City. Gold tooth, drove an older Lexus, well, you get the picture. Nice guy but again, just not too hot an attorney.
The other fellow grew up in the "hood" in Kansas City. Gold tooth, drove an older Lexus, well, you get the picture. Nice guy but again, just not too hot an attorney.
keith44spl
Member
Counselor is a term of endearment used by LEO's when addressing defense counsel. It is usually uttered while the LEO is on the stand and is usually spat through clenched teeth. It's meaning is pretty clear to everyone who is within hearing distance. It means "you dripping piece of camel sputum-I hope you die a slow and merciless death as someone flays pieces of skin from your nether region whilst you hang by your thumbs from the tree in the courthouse square." or meanings close to that effect
Hey Now!
That's was meant to be in coded...........
Caj, has cracked to code.....Everyone one back to the Bat Cave!
Su Amigo,
Dave
Titles for the insecure ...
Having worked professional staff at three universities I have seen the same types.
It seem that the less the PhD know of the outside world the more he demands name recognition.
Bekeart
Having worked professional staff at three universities I have seen the same types.
It seem that the less the PhD know of the outside world the more he demands name recognition.
Bekeart
MaximumLawman
Member
Irks me when a cop is on the stand and is told "please state your name for the record" and he says "Sergeant Bob Smith".....Really? Your mother named you "Sergeant Robert Smith". Reminds me of the Dragnet episode where the bad guy insisted on being addressed as MISTER Daniel Loomis...Even had it tattooed on his arm.
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