Questions on an old Ithaca 12ga SxS

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Got a couple questions on this old Ithaca 12ga SxS

1) Was there a model number associated with these guns?

2) Based on a search I'm assuming it uses 2 1/2" shells?

3) Based on current condition what would be a value of it?

Serial number 293800 puts it mfg. 1918 if I read the chart correctly.

Barrels are marked 2 4 which I understand is mod/full.

I'll probably give it a good cleaning and set it in the safe as these old shoulders most likely would hurt more after pulling either trigger.

Thanks in advance for any and all info.

Masterbuck54
 

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2.5" shells recoil are normally very similar to 20 gauge shells. The thing that caused "The Hurt" is improper fit and/or stance. The old guns were made for hunting with thicker clothes on and a heads-up stance, so they have shorter butt stocks than more current guns. A slip-on butt pad, goes a long way to reducing the felt impact of a gun that's not tight against the shoulder.

I believe "Kent" brand also offers 2.5" shells for Hunting and Target use. Walmart probably will never have ammo! However, Ballistic Products has Ammo and reloading components for just about anything shotgun. They are in the Chicago area, and ship everywhere the law allows. They're easy to find on-line and have always been very helpful on the phone.

Gun value for a short chamber field grade in usable condition is maybe $200-250.

Ivan

Edit to add: There is a possibility it has 2 5/8" chambers, there is ammo for that out there too, but 2 1/2" ammo will work fine too.

People have been known to ream the chambers/forcing cones to 2 3/4" length, but it really is better to just buy the correct ammo. I mean, a couple boxes of #5 shot and a couple of #7 will last most hunters several years. and it will never be a trap or skeet gun and the stock won't take the pounding of hundreds of rounds a year. These make great guns for cutting the butt to fit smaller shooters (think ladies or children).
 
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There is no reason to believe that shooting 2-3/4 shells in a 2-1/2 chamber will be dangerous. That is a total myth.

In 2001 Sherman Bell did extensive testing of firing a large number of factory 12 gauge 2-3/4 shells with different loads in a 2-1/2 chamber (actually several different 2-1/2 chamber designs) as reported in the Double Gun Journal. He used an actual piezo gauge instrumented pressure test barrel. His results were that the average peak chamber pressure increases were negligible, between 300 psi and 1000 psi, depending on the specific load. It was also noted that shot-to-shot peak pressure variations were seen to be from 300 psi to 600 psi for identical loads.

Also, be aware that the actual fired case length of most of today's plastic shells, either 20 or 12 gauge, is closer to 2.6" than 2.75"

Personal experience, I have a very early 20 gauge Model 12 with a 2-1/2 chamber. I have fired thousands of 2-3/4 shells through it without issue. The only problem is the ejection port length. It is too short for Federal fired cases to clear. Remington and Winchester plastic cases are slightly shorter and eject OK. When I first got that Model 12, I started by cutting the case length of 2-3/4 cases to 2-1/2" for reloading. I fairly quickly stopped doing that as it was just a waste of time and effort.
 
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I sold 2 at auction this past fall. One from 1924 and one with the 2,4 barrel choke that you mention. I would say both in better condition than the one you picture. $300 and $290. Great guns.
 
Fire the right ammo in the right gun…period. I've had a couple Ithaca's reamed to 2 3/4" as well as a couple European SxSs. Depending on how chambers are cut can cause pressure spike using longer shells in short chambers.
There is always somebody who wants to argue that Damascus is stronger than fluid steel too. I have never seen a steel barrel blow out from chamber pressure but have seen them bulge immediately in front of chamber. The same spot that Damascus will blow out when fired with smokeless. People think these things will happen on the first shot. They won't, you may get away with it forever depending on chamber.
To put a blanket statement on these old doubles doesn't work.
 
Does it say 'Fluid Steel' on the barrels? I did not see the Damascus pattern on your photos but I would make sure it is not Damascus prior to shooting it.
 
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I love SxS shotguns and the lever position shows lots of life left as far as lock up wear. Keep the lock area oiled if you buy it. Being a 12 ga and being older I would probably pass on it bc of the weight. Carrying a heavier shotgun all day hunting is tougher now. If it's something you won't use much, save the money for something that will turn up in the future. If you do buy it, bring it to the NE Ohio bunch so I can see it unless it's just too big to travel with staying in the hotel. Would be a cheap cowboy shotgun and no collectible loss cutting the barrels. Good luck Pete, Larry
 
Being a 12 ga and being older I would probably pass on it bc of the weight. Carrying a heavier shotgun all day hunting is tougher now.

I have 2 SxS 12's; 2 O/U 12's: 1 semi auto 12: and 5 pump 12's. I haven't shot any of them since 2013. Once and a while I shoot a 20 gauge but mostly it's my 2 28 O/U's or my 2 410 O/U's. The reloading costs are much less as well as the weight. At $45 a bag of shot, I prefer 800 rounds per bag to 400!

I keep an 870 12 on ready alert for SD. I know I'll be in bad shape if I use it, but the other guy will be worse!

Ivan
 
Thanks for the comments

My lugging a gun around in the field days have passed years ago.

Might just clean it up this weekend and find a place in the safe for it.

I didn't see any additional markings on the barrels…maybe while cleaning it will reveal something.

Larry, I'll throw it in the car and bring along to the NE Ohio Bunch gathering next month.

Masterbuck54
 
Sounds good Pete, it's a classic that were usually used a lot for hunting for food. Just like the plentiful Savage Stevens SxS's.

I finally scaled down to a light 20 ga, a Victor Sarasqueta side lock imported by Stoeger I believe in the 60's. Andy Horvath has it to hopefully get the trigger pull to a useful weight. They were about 10-15 lbs. Larry
 

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I love old double guns. Any make is fine, but the famous old American nameplates are my favorites. I try to pick up any that I can afford. Side by sides just have that mystique that evokes a bygone era, and the U.S. made guns really bring back those memories of early mornings with my Dad and brother. Cold boat rides to the duck blind and the whistling of wings in the pre dawn darkness.
A full day's hunt, maybe a few birds to dress, and a snooze in the recliner in front of the wood stove. Yes, I try to buy each one I find that I can afford.
 
The Flues Models are a decent SxS.
They do have a couple of weaknesses that are fairly common.

The broken upper stock 'ears' right along the top tang and up against the frame is one.
That's a design fault of the stock to frame attachment.

The Flues does not have what most any other SxS has inside and that is an angled interface betw the stock and the frame. The angled piece on the frame is usually on the trigger plate but being a solid piece when bolted up to the frame, it can be considered as one.

What that does as the Top Tang Screw is tightened is to pull the Frame and the Stock together. It tightens the assembly of the two components.

In the Flues,,there is not such interface.
The large Top Tang Screw which is just under the Top Lever is just a very short coarse threaded Wood Screw.
It has little holding power as the depth of the thread is short and in these older guns many are simply stripped in the wood and hold little if nothing.
The only thing holding the Frame back solidly into the stock inlet is the Rear Tang Screw which inserts from the bottom.
It in itself is a very small dia screw for the job and again has no interlocking effect.

What happens is that the Frame becomes loose in it's stock inlet over time.
That allows the frame to rotate up and back when the gun is fired. It's a very small amt but with it the top rear edge of the frame pushes against the wood there and the stock 'Ears' crack and break.

The stock at the wrist on tap just behind the top tang also is common to have cracked.

There are ways to reinforce the Flues. Glass Bedding is one. That Top Tang Screw is sometimes replaced with a machine thread screw and a threaded nut is imbedded into the wood of the stock in glass bedding for it to thread in to.

If a bit of 'Draw' is carefully planned out in the placement of the screw and nut so when inserted and tightened, it can have the same effect as the sloped interface in other stock designs. Just not as much but it helps.
The Rear Tang screw can also be 'loaded' so when tightened it draws the frame to the rear and tightly into the wood inlet.

The Flues frame is a very thin shell of a design.
The sides are very thin and there are the coil mainspring voids drilled near horizonally just under the surface on both sides that further weaken it.
It's a not so uncommon trait for the Flues frame to crack vertically from the intersection of the standing breech straight down the sides to the bottom of the recv'r.

This is seen more on the extreme lightweight small biore guns that were trimmed down even further in attempts to make an under 6# SxS.
But the standard frames in 12 and other gauges are effected too.

The somewhat sharp corner where the standing breech and action flat meet is not the best engineering design and probably doesn't help matters. But it's there.

The Breech Shields, the rounded Mickey Mouse ears on the frame that sit behind the bbl chambers are generally filed very thin also.
All this to save weight.

It makes for a somewhat fragile frame design but it was 1905 or so when it was designed and BP was still king with most smokless-nitro loads being Bulk Smokless Powder that was loaded vol/vol the same as BP.

Many of the Flues will be stamped 'Nitro Proved' on the bottom of the bbl lug. Take the bbls off and turn them upside down . It's generally on the very tip of the bbl lug betw the breech.

Ithaca offered the Flues with both Steel and Damascus bbl's during production or at least the first 10yrs or so.
People sometimes trusted Damascus/Twist/Laminated steel bbls at the time more than those new Fluid Steel bbls being sold.
Old habits.
Winchester was doing the same with offering both for the Model 97.

Are the Damascus bbls safe to shoot? A question only you can decide. There is plenty of info out there to argue both sides of the issue.
I shoot them at times still. I used to shoot them a lot more and always with my own low pressure Smokeless handloads. IMR 7625 was my fav powder. Disc now but I have a good supply.


Nitro at the time was not 21st century smokeless loads.
I would not shoot OTC 12ga loads out of a Flues. Plenty have and the guns hold together.
But they just were not made for that.
BP chamber pressure in a 12ga is generally accepted at 6500 to 7000 psi
Bulk Smokeless of the time was designed to mimic BP pressures and use in reloading (Vol per Vol).

Todays OTC 12ga rounds are generally loaded to max SAAMI pressures by the mfg'rs to make sure customers are happy that their Benelli's all work fine. SAAMI Max service pressure for 12ga is 11,500 psi.

Chamber length in a Flues in 12ga was 2 5/8.
If you carefully measure one with a chamber casting so you can really see where the chamber ends and the forcing cone begins you will usually get a measurement closer to 2 1/2"

Not uncommon to see this in that era.
Remington, Parker and others would cut their shotgun chamber lenghts just short of what the standard or stated length was.
This is noted in old factory specs and correspondence.

The Forcing Cone ahead of the chamber in these oldies is very short and very abrupt. A very steep angle for the wads and shot charge to be funneled from hull into the bore.

All designed including the slightly short chambers, so as to make the most in velocity and patterning results with the shells loaded at the time.
Those being Paper hulls, Hard Cardboard over powder wads and cushioning wads of various material such as fiber, cork and even leather.

We don't (usually) load that anymore.
So now the slick plastic shell and one piece wad is there,
So it unfolds partially in that short steep angled forcing cone.
every gun is different. Every factory cut theirs differently.

You just can't say that any shell longer than the real chamber length is going to be safe in any short chamber / forcing cone spec in any shotgun .
Way too many variables.
People freak out when shotshell loaders wander off the reloading guide printed recipe and start substituting components.
A change in Primer it is often said can (not always) boost chamber pressure 2000psi.
I don't know if that's true of not but anyone that reloads will tell you that when switching components to start the load over again an Min.
Problem is that there are no Min/Max loads in the shotshell reloading charts.

That one gun with short chamber(s) has successfully stood up to a constant diet of 'long' shells is not guarantee about anything.
They are all different and the materials , heat treat, finishing, fitting ect that went into the making of say a Win 12 of the same ear are so different that that Flues Ithaca.

Take them apart like I have and repair them like I have for the last 50yrs and you'll see why the Flues while a perfectly good shotgun for general use is in no way a strong action.

I've fixed a lot of Flues models over the years and they are not an engineering marvel. Very weak design in several ways if I had to make one statement.

But if in good mechanical condition and used as they were intended they will last a good long time.
 
Gun has been taken apart

Ok with the help of YouTube I was able to disassemble the gun which I'm sure hasn't been done before.

Got the parts soaking in ATF/acetone mixture. I'll leave it sit until next week.

Cleaned the barrels and did notice they were stamped " smokeless powder steel".

Hopefully I can reassemble everything next week with no difficulty….if I have issues I may be bringing in a basket to the NE Ohio gathering next month 🤣🤣

Everyone have a great weekend 👍

Masterbuck54
 
Western Arms was another Ithaca mfg SxS from the late 20's till WW2.
Pretty much the same as the Ithaca/Lefever Nito Special.
The big differnce was the Western Arms frame was made of Malleable Iron.
The Ithaca/Lefever Nitro Special's are a drop forged Steel frame..

Nearly the same inside though as far as design and lock-up.

The Lefever Nitro Special was nothing even near the Lefever original SxS.
Ithaca had bought out the orig Lefever Co and did assemble some of their orig style side plated SxS's in the beginning. They are marked with the Ithaca name on the side plates.

The Lefever Nitro Special by Ithaca is a simple box lock and Ithaca decided to market it with the very well known Lefever name which they owned at that point.

Glad the OP got the Flues apart.
If you took the hammers and coil mainsprings out, you will have quite a time in re-assembly. A simple tool to hold and compress the hammer/spring assembly into the frame so the pivot pin can be re-inserted is usually used.
Other than that, using a couple screw drivers to do the trick can be a test of strength and temper. Wear eye protection, those springs bite.

The Top Lever spring is the other tough one. Short powerful coil spring in the back face of the frame and held there by a headless screw. You need to compress that spring and hold it as such to be able to insert and tighten the screw.
Another simple tool helps greatly with that re-assembly.
 
Ivan,

I agree the cost of shot is astronomical, but I must say the 3/4 oz 12 ga load has been a game changer. I'm shooting more 12 ga now than ever. All you need for skeet, even most sporting clays shots. When I do 100 sporting clays, I'll typically carry 2 boxes of 3/4 oz and 2 boxes 7/8. I'll also have a box of cheap 1/18 oz factory throwaways just to have some extras of in case the course has a rare super long shot. Or one that just gets in my head, and then I'll take the "40mm Bofors" approach which rarely makes any difference but it makes me feel good.

In fact, I load 3/4 oz in every gauge except .410!

Masterbuck, that's a nice looking old Ithaca, enjoy it
 
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