Questionsabout an Old Timer

[Iggy]

I know this isn't a S&W question, but there is a wealth of knowledge floating around here begging for use.

I have a friend who is considering a trade of an old .410 break top pistol.My impression is that it has a "wire" butt stock.

He thinks it is a H&R and maybe a "Game Getter" I
thought it might be a "Buggy gun" or a "Bicycle gun."

He first of all wants to know if these are legally transferable, and if so if any one has an idea of the value of such a firearm.

I know this is sparse information, and I will try and ascertain more this afternoon.

I have done some searches on various forums and gun auction sites.. All I found was a Marble Game Getter for a substantial amount..

Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.

Iggy

 

[Iggy]

I know this isn't a S&W question, but there is a wealth of knowledge floating around here begging for use.

I have a friend who is considering a trade of an old .410 break top pistol.My impression is that it has a "wire" butt stock.

He thinks it is a H&R and maybe a "Game Getter" I
thought it might be a "Buggy gun" or a "Bicycle gun."

He first of all wants to know if these are legally transferable, and if so if any one has an idea of the value of such a firearm.

I know this is sparse information, and I will try and ascertain more this afternoon.

I have done some searches on various forums and gun auction sites.. All I found was a Marble Game Getter for a substantial amount..

Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.

Iggy

 

[feralmerril]

If its a H&R Handi Gun or a Marlin game getter, dont walk, run! That could cost you your entire gun collection after they do many other nice things to you!

 

[feralmerril]

I have had experience with both many years ago. That wire stock was called a idea holster/stock both guns are illegal unless registered under the old whatever law years ago, and it probley wasnt. Here is a lugar I once owned with the idea outfit. I also once had a H&R handi gun pawned off on me many years ago when I was dumb. It was beautifull, unfired and I threw it away, I forgot where! I also had a friend years ago with that marlin. Put it out of your mind!

 

[john traveler]

I believe feramerril is correct. Those old-time shotgun pistols with wire stocks were classified as short barreled shotguns by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Simple possession of an unregistered one is a federal felony.

However, (and this is where the speculation starts), in the last several years, many formerly banned firearms have been added to the Curio and Relic catagory, and can now be possessed without a license and transfer fee.

It may be advisable to contact the BATFE for clarification if you want to transfer one.

 

[feralmerril]

Slight correction: That was not marlin, but I belive a Marbel game getter! Got my wires crossed.

 

[Iggy]

I ran across a Marble Game Getter for sale on one of the auction houses on line for $2300.00.

That's what threw me, and made me wonder if they had reached relic status.

Guess I'll have to confer with my old retired ATF buddy when we go to the gun show this weekend.

 

[Jerry in SC]

A Marble's Game Getter (12" and 15" barrels) is still classified as an NFA weapon, to the best of my knowledge. There were supposedly some 18" barreled versions, but I've never seen one.

Some of the confusion exists since they are classified as C&R's but still subject to the NFA.

 

[mtb1bkr]

This is from the C&R manual in section IV: NFA weapons classified as curios or relics (still under the NFA and the GCA).

Marble's Game Getter, Firearms, with a combination of .44 cal. or .410 gauge smooth bore and .22 cal.
barrels, both lst and 2nd models, with barrel lengths of less than 18", mfd. by the Marble Arms Corporation of Gladstone, MI, prior to 1943

So, looks like unless this weapon was previously registered under the GCA, it is not legal to own.

Bill

 

[recycler]

I know these things are taboo, but how can you own a American Derringer that shoots 45 Colt and .410 without that being illegal also?
I think Tarus also makes some 45/.410 revolver.
Whats the difference?
Pete

 

[JD 500]

Originally posted by recycler:
I know these things are taboo, but how can you own a American Derringer that shoots 45 Colt and .410 without that being illegal also?
I think Tarus also makes some 45/.410 revolver.
Whats the difference?
Pete

The American Derringer, and the taurus revolver don't have a shoulder stock.

____________________________________________

Just out of curiosity, if someone like the orig. poster finds an item classified as NFA, and not previously registered, what would be the correct way to deal with that item ?

 

[Iggy]

Based on info you guys gave and further questions of the owner would indicate the gun in question is a H&R Handy gun.

He bought it from a dealer many years ago.

I suspect he didn't get the papers to go with it and it is now a unique boat anchor.

Thanks for the help.

 

[smitholdtimer]

JD 500, the "Handy Guns" by H&R made in the 1930's had no shoulder stock, were chambered for .410 & .28 gauge shot gun shells in addition for some rifle ammo. I was confronted with a similar situation a short time ago and inquired on this forum. There is no way to read the rules or obtain a definitive answer from the ATF. I was advised that I couldn't afford the lawyer fees included with the discovery of said weapon by the authorities preventing me from further consideration of ownership. Such a shame for an unique piece of history that would never be used as intended, just collected. My two cents worth.

 

[sigp220.45]

quote:
Originally posted by recycler:
I know these things are taboo, but how can you own a American Derringer that shoots 45 Colt and .410 without that being illegal also?
I think Tarus also makes some 45/.410 revolver.
Whats the difference?
Pete



The American Derringer, and the taurus revolver don't have a shoulder stock.

They also have rifled barrels, so they're not shotguns even though they can fire .410 shells.

 

[feralmerril]

That handy gun I had years ago really kicked! The grip was shaped like a hacksaw handle, and it felt like it took a run at your hand. As I recall it had the prettist case harding and fine workmanship. I read somewhere years ago they were a popular punchboard prize when they used to have them in bars and elsewhere. I dont know why they should be illegal now as someone else said they have derringers in them, and I also have a legal TC in 45 colt/410 with the choke/muzzle brake. How do they come up with those conflicting rules and thinking? To me it makes no sense to start with! I just think they slip that stuff through to confuse people and to make it so people are afraid to own ANYTHING because they might be breaking some obscure law that doesnt exist.
All that it is about is just pure and simple harassment to detter gun ownership. They know it and we know it!
Its kind of like makeing so many traffic laws, that even a concionous patrolman will break some law if you follow him a mile or two.
Throw enough gun and hunting laws out there, and they can find something to rap the most legal citizen on something with looking hard enough! I sure would hate to be truck driver now days!
I once had a friend that drove truck. He was tired after a long drive, put up his truck, got in his car and drove a couple miles home. So happened a chip that was a neighbor and friend pulled him over as he got to the house, and said Bob, you broke something like 4 or 5 laws in the last mile! Bob said he was tired. He didnt get wrote.

 

[Andy Griffith]

I've really been thinking about this...and have for a long time if for some reason I was ever "offered" one.

First, you'd have to find out if it was registered or not at one time.

If, for some reason it was not registered, it cannot be registered at all. However... and this is a big however and speculation on my part...

I don't believe that it would fall under the NFA if the barrel was "demilled" so that it would not be able to be fired. Having the breech end of the barrel welded so that no shell could be placed into the chamber *might* suffice.

That, or cut the bottom lug off of the old barrel and have a gunsmith reattach it to a barrel of sufficient length to make the over-all length legal (without the stock affixed- likely 24"+), and completely destroy the old barrel.

The above is only speculation.
In any instance, I wouldn't even handle it with a 33 1/2' pole unless it was 100% legal before I came into contact with it.

 

[2152hq]

Having an NFA weapon 'demilled' does not place it into any catagory making it legal to own. If you are talking about welding up the breech, welding/plugging the bore, etc,,,that does not make an NFA wepon legal to own. A 'do-it yourself' de-mill job does not make a formerly contraband NFA weapon instantly legal.

At one time (50's,,60's) there was a program offered whereby the Treasury Dept would deactivate NFA weapons,,usually World War full auto bring backs by such methods. Proper Federal registration paper work was issued with each and the guns were entered into the NFA records.

The only thing the deactivation did was to defer the payment of the $200 Stamp Tax on the weapon. It's been a long time since that has been offered and most likely never will again. Those weapons became known as the 'DEWATS' or Deactivated War Trophys.

The actual wording of 'demilled' doesn't apply as far as the BATF is concerned. I don't believe they have ever officially used the term.
Currently the term is destruction and the BATF Guide Book gives very specific instructions on the proper methods to destroy the different types of weapons before they can be imported for parts. Torch cut is the only method I believe is accepted now and each of the at least 3 cuts to be made must be in the correct place on the weapon at intersecting angles, etc.

The 'DEWAT' full auto firearms are of considerable value as they are the only source now available to the civilian population for additional full auto weapons to come onto the market. A Class III mfg'r can with proper approval and payment of tax, reactivate a DEWAT. It would be available for transfer to an individual,, unlike any other full auto made since 5/86.

Rebarreling may be an option to making the HandiGun a legal firearm in the end. But the problem is that you are starting out with a very illegal one in your possession.

 

[jag312]

For a Marble Game Getter, remove the barrels from the frame. The frame is a Title 1 firearm. Have a competent gunsmith install 19 inch barrels. At that point it is a Title 1 firearn not subject to registration as an NFA firearm.

For an H&R Handy Gun, remove the barrel, have a competent gunsmith install a rifled liner (my suggestion is .32-20), and the firearm becomes a Title 1 firearm not subject to registration.

 

[JD 500]

Originally posted by smitholdtimer:
JD 500, the "Handy Guns" by H&R made in the 1930's had no shoulder stock, were chambered for .410 & .28 gauge shot gun shells in addition for some rifle ammo. I was confronted with a similar situation a short time ago and inquired on this forum. There is no way to read the rules or obtain a definitive answer from the ATF. I was advised that I couldn't afford the lawyer fees included with the discovery of said weapon by the authorities preventing me from further consideration of ownership. Such a shame for an unique piece of history that would never be used as intended, just collected. My two cents worth.

Thanks smitholdtimer .


Interesting info on this post.
Iggy was right about the amount of knowledge on this site. Guess that's why I just keep coming back.

I'm surprised the appropriate authorities don't have a proper way of dealing with this as people pass away and thier relatives/kids/whomever discover old boxes that haven't seen daylight in decades. It's got to be happening on a more frequent basis. ?

 

[oldRoger]

I think we are trying to apply reason and logic to something that is political. These rules were made and revised, and revised some more by bureaucrats working for politicians.
The surprising thing would be if they did make sense.