"R" for round butt or refinish. Opinions requested.

[dacoontz]

Awhile back I picked up this pre-model 30. I was looking over it the other day paid a little closer attention to the markings on the frame. I had seen the "R" before but didn't pay much attention. Now I am wondering what it might really mean. I would think refinish but it isn't the standard refinish R I am used to. The R is on all parts minus the ejector star. There is no date stamping on th butt frame. Is this R for round or could this be the mark of a non-factory refinish. I should add that minus the double stamping of the S&W symbol I am not sure there are any indications that the gun has been refinished. Tell me what you think and help me understand? Thanks.

 

[VM]

Daniel - The stamped "R" would make me think it was factory reblue but I can't imagine them double stamping the logo and leaving it like that?? (or the person paying for the reblue, accepting that!)

 

[mikepriwer]

I'd suggest asking Roy about this. My guess, and its only a guess,
is that it has something to do with the gun being rejected, at some
point in the manufacturing process. One would think that double
stamping the logo is a no-no ! Perhaps there were other problems,
as well.

Usually, for a refinish, the marking would be something like R-S
with a box around it. The R would mean refinish, and the S would
mean the Service department.

Post the pictures and comments on the S&WCA side.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Elroy]

There are always a certain amount of manufacturing errors. With that double strike could the "R" possibly stand for reject??

 

[VM]

The "R" for reject makes perfect sense with the double logo..........but why not just destroy it? I can't believe S&W would want the gun to leave the plant.
Daniel - this might be a good reason to letter a gun. It would be interesting to see where it went, if anywhere.......maybe an employee was allowed to buy it?? (if indeed it was a reject)

 

[1 old 0311]

Gee. Doesn't anyone read their 'Bible?' R would not indicate refinish ( page 17)

 

[Muley Gil]

"The R would mean refinish, and the S would
mean the Service department."

I believe that S is for Standard (blue).

 

[Hondo44]

That's a beautiful example of the very earliset post war I frame with 1st type thumbpiece. Does it also have the pre war style stocks; maybe even silver medallions? If the letter request comes back with an "off the books" response, that may indicate the employee sale scenario or maybe even a lunch box special.

 

[keith44spl]

a lunch box special.

That's what i was a thinkin' as well.

Like a lot of other things....Mother nature has a hard bosum.


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[ar15ed]

alright, i am dangerous with my newfound s&w forum knowledge! that is actually not the earliest thumbpiece. the earliest was the "hourglass" with the undercut sides, then the "standard hourglass", then the latch in question, then the earliest flatlatches. also, the rear "flathead" screw would indicate magnas came on it, as opposed to service stocks. it actually looks kinda like it has a line where the magnas horns end at the top.
i apologize for jumping in with a minor disagreement, but i am always trying to gain knowledge on these little guys, and am slowly learning a thing or two, maybe!

it is a neat little gun!

 

[sheriffoconee]

I am throwing in with Keith44spl and others who support the "lunchbox" gun theory....that doublestrike would have consigned it to the meltdown pile..and if I worked there and saw that in the meltdown pile, it might have found it's way into MY lunchbox!!!!!

 

[dacoontz]

Thanks for the opinions gents. I will take Mikes advice and see what Roy has to say.

I like the idea of the lunchbox special. I don't have that caliber yet, or I didn't think I did. The gun has diamond magnas. It's the top one in the pic below.

I have a number if refinished guns and they all have R-S or R-N with the date stamp. Thanks for the opinions. I would never have thought of the reject idea. I bought the gun partially because of the double stamp as I thought it was unusual.

 

[SDH]

She is a beauty no matter, Daniel...
and we can be sure the double strike happened at the factory.

 

[SWSC]

Possible a factory internal code for a refinish before the revolver left the factory for the first time. If the revolvers finish was marred on one area, barrel cylinder or frame it would have just one R on the part. If all three areas were marred and the revolver was disassembled for a factory refinish it may help in letting the finish folks know what to refinish and aid in reassembly of the revolver by serial number. The double strike is unusual. Maybe missed during final inspection?

 

[1 old 0311]

Thanks for the opinions gents. I will take Mikes advice and see what Roy has to say.

I like the idea of the lunchbox special. I don't have that caliber yet, or I didn't think I did. The gun has diamond magnas. It's the top one in the pic below.

I have a number if refinished guns and they all have R-S or R-N with the date stamp. Thanks for the opinions. I would never have thought of the reject idea. I bought the gun partially because of the double stamp as I thought it was unusual.

'Lunch Box Specials' are cool. I have one. A 3" 36 NO DASH.

 

[mikepriwer]

Maybe missed during final inspection?

Maybe, if the inspector was blind !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[sheriffoconee]

Ray Charles could see that double stamp....I can't wait to see what the letter says!!

 

[Sebago Son]

".... Mother nature has a hard bosum. "

... and I can find no mark upon it.

I'm thinking that the "R" refers to "rework" and I bet this little gun contains a mixture of pre- and post-war parts.

This may be an example of a "make-do" gun fitted with clean-up parts as the "I" and "Improved-I" co-evolved.

What's the best estimate for manufacturing date?

Will sure be interesting to learn more...

Drew

 

[Hondo44]

alright, i am dangerous with my newfound s&w forum knowledge! that is actually not the earliest thumbpiece. the earliest was the "hourglass" with the undercut sides, then the "standard hourglass", then the latch in question, then the earliest flatlatches. also, the rear "flathead" screw would indicate magnas came on it, as opposed to service stocks. it actually looks kinda like it has a line where the magnas horns end at the top.
i apologize for jumping in with a minor disagreement, but i am always trying to gain knowledge on these little guys, and am slowly learning a thing or two, maybe!

it is a neat little gun!

Good eye! My mistake and simantics, thanks for your input, and that's how we have a discussion and share info. You're right in that the double houglass w/under cut thumbpiece is seen on some of the earliest post war models. But it's actually a pre war left over part. Therefore my reference, and to clarify the double hour glass w/o undercut being the "1st" post war 'new' design (double hourglass).
However, I was mistaken about the latch in question (my eyesight betrayed me...again), it's not the 1st design, it's the second or single hourglass. Then came the standard (that followed the flat latches after 1966), then the 3 versions of flat latches.

And correct about the stocks, it would typically have Magnas with the 2nd post war design thumbpiece.
Will send a PM with more detail.

Thanks,

 

[walnutred]

If the R indicates a refinish it seems odd that the barrel would be marked as well. Wouldn't think a barrel would get separated from the frame as part of a reblue. I like the lunchbox special theory using reject parts. Not only is it logical but makes an interesting story as well.

Actually in thinking about it maybe this was a training gun. Remember that for most of the post WW2 era police departments could send their Armorers to S&W for training. In the more advanced classes you could build a revolver in any configuration you wanted as long as you used stock parts. After the revolver passed the final function test you took it home with you. It's easy to imagine a police armorer trainee double stamping his project revolver.

 

[dacoontz]

The .32 Hand Ejector serial number 554536 was shipped December 1951. Haven't sent for a letter yet. Waiting to see what Roy has to say about the "R" first.

 

[Gun-runner]

That's what i was a thinkin' as well.

Like a lot of other things....Mother nature has a hard bosum.


Su Amigo,
Dave

One piece at a time and it didn't cost me a dime??? ; )

 

[tom turner]

Whatever the outcome, it is a great lookin' specimen . . . and especially the double stamp!

Looking forward to what Roy might say!

 

[raven818]

Double stamped. I'd have to keep it till the cows come in. Although different for sure, it's that difference that would make be buy it.
Kinda like a double stamp coin.

 

[Babalooie]

That's what i was a thinkin' as well.

Like a lot of other things....Mother nature has a hard bosum.


Su Amigo,
Dave

A modern "Cigarette Gun?"

I have seen Post War Walthers with no markings. They were called, "Cigarette Guns" because the workers would trade them with US GI's for cartons of cigarettes.

 

[walnutred]

A modern "Cigarette Gun?"

I have seen Post War Walthers with no markings. They were called, "Cigarette Guns" because the workers would trade them with US GI's for cartons of cigarettes.

A friends dad had a PPK with no markings he had picked up during the war. He told us that his unit had occupied the plant briefly and he was able to find all of the parts to build the pistol except for the grips, which he found after returning stateside. I mentioned this to someone in the 80's and was told it was not possible because the Walther plant was in the Russian sector, not the US sector.

However a few years ago in reading an article on the development of the 9x18 ctg I learned that indeed the Walther plant was occupied by US troops for a short time before the Russians moved in. So I was able to go back to believing the story without feeling patronizing.

 

[Hondo44]

My dad had a similar experience in Italy. He and another platoon member were assigned to stand watch in a warehouse at the Berretta plant. They were sitting on crates and decided to see what was in them. Each crate held 24 brand new Berretta .380s. They loaded a couple of crates each into their jeep when they left in the morning. For the next couple of months they lived like kings with their 'trading stock'. He brought one home.

 

[Green Frog]

OK, am I the only one excited about the serial number?? In an earlier thread, we thrashed out the idea of when the change-over to coil spring action, and this was posted at the end by two of our most knowledgeable afficianados on the subject;



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
I hate to upset the apple cart; my earlist Improved model 2" .32 HE with coil spring is # 574497.
End Quote

Apple carts have adapted to being upset.They expect it now.

I'm going to guess that we will eventually find an improved I-frame numbered between 565000 and 570000.
__________________
David Wilson

I think based on numbers discussed in that thread, we had about reached a consensus. Now we see a coil spring gun numbered 554536??? Don't we expect to see flat spring guns numbered as much as 10,000 or even 20,000 higher?? Could the "R" have stood for "Research" as in "Research and Development?" Then again, could it be that we were wrong about the relative ratio of post-War I-frames and that only about 20,000 (instead of 30, 000 - 40, 000) of the un-improved HE series guns were made? My head hurts!!

Froggie

 

[dacoontz]

Froggie,
Are you saying that from what you've seen and heard that this could be a very early coil spring gun?
Looking in the S&WCA databases, I see a few lower numbered pre model 30's but none of them have any info about a coil spring. There is one in the 537,xxx range that is listed with a strain screw.
Just so I am understanding, the improved I frames were made with first a leaf spring and then a coil spring. The question Froggie is putting up is when, or at what serial number, did that transition take place. Sorry if I am a little slow, still learning a lot about these smaller framed smiths.

 

[Green Frog]

Froggie,
Are you saying that from what you've seen and heard that this could be a very early coil spring gun?
Looking in the S&WCA databases, I see a few lower numbered pre model 30's but none of them have any info about a coil spring. There is one in the 537,xxx range that is listed with a strain screw.
Just so I am understanding, the improved I frames were made with first a leaf spring and then a coil spring. The question Froggie is putting up is when, or at what serial number, did that transition take place. Sorry if I am a little slow, still learning a lot about these smaller framed smiths.

Daniel,

The so-called "improvement" mostly was the switch over to a coil mainspring. Who knows why! Anyway, the 537,000 range gun you cite was fairly soon after the small frame production was resumed after WW II, probably using up leftover pre-War frames and other parts. I own a specimen in the 553XXX range which is still a flat spring, and our previous discussions led me to believe, as posted above, it was one of the last 10-20,000 of the old style. Now I'm wondering whether it was one of the very last and yours is one of the first of the "improved" unless it is some sort of anomaly as previously suggested. The actual cut-off for the flat spring would now drop to about 554,000 if this was a hard interface, otherwise your example was really born out of time! Does anyone have an example of a post-War HE numbered above 554,000?

Froggie