Raising POI

[Magload]

I know on this forum I have read how to raise the POI of the bullet with changing the load. I can't find it with the search. Took the 9mm 5" Pro to the range after removing the Ultradot to shoot her with open sights. I am drilling one hole in the target about a 1.5" dia out to 15 yards shooting two handed. The darn group is 1.25 low and I am shooting the dot on the front sight and aligning the center of that dot across the top of the rear sight. Totally a wrong sight picture that I don't want to use. It is either correct it with the load or buy a adjustable rear sight. The front sight is covering to much of the target at 20 yards. Don

 

[mtgianni]

Raising a group involves increasing barrel dwell time or time the bullet spends in the bbl. Slow it down or go heavier. Measuring that little of a desired rise might be difficult, try slowing it 150-200 fps. Overall group will change and if you need a minimum power ratio you might be better off using a file on the front sight.

 

[Magload]

Raising a group involves increasing barrel dwell time or time the bullet spends in the bbl. Slow it down or go heavier. Measuring that little of a desired rise might be difficult, try slowing it 150-200 fps. Overall group will change and if you need a minimum power ratio you might be better off using a file on the front sight.

I was thinking that was how it worked and I close to PF right now I am at 133 with the slowest bullet out of 10 across the chrono but like to keep a little margin for error. Due to the glow tube in the front sight on my 9 Pro filing is out. Looking for new adjustable sights. Don

 

[Nevada Ed]

A PF of 133.........................

Heck, some of my X-Lite loads are only hitting a PF of 113
with a 115gr and a FP of 117 with the 124gr plated bullets.

However they are at POA with the factory iron sights.

I had a 147 jacket Speer at just 584 fps for a PF of just 85.8 !!!
Needless to say, I had two FTE but they all cleared the end of the barrel, some how.

DON"T try doing this............
I'm just crazy enough to do dumb things to see how far you can
go, before things go wrong.

750fps is the minimum for a 147gr jacket in my book......
800 fps is even better if you can't get tight ES spreads.

ps;
what type/weight bullet are you shooting & OAL. ( Factory ? )

 

[k22fan]

As previously posted increasing barrel time by lowering velocity is the primary way POI is raised by changing loads. At the same velocity a heavier bullet should cause the muzzle to recoil up a litter more but that is a lesser consideration.

However, I suspect the main problem here is misunderstanding how S&W's 3 dots sights are intended to be used. Assuming they have not changed since 3rd generation metal guns were the standard they are designed to align all 3 dots in a row and superimpose the front dot over the target. It is a set up for close range self defense that sucks when applied to sporting pistols. The easiest solution for 3rd generation autos was to purchase shorter front sights from S&W. Absent the tritium dot they were inexpensive. I don't even know whether a "9mm 5" Pro" is a M&P variation or a 1911 but a call to S&W seeking a shorter front sight might be your best bet. If the pistol is fairly new they might even change it under warranty just to retain a happy customer.

 

[Rule3]

You can "fiddle" all you want but I doubt any change in powder or bullet will change your POA at 15-20 yards yards.

The 3 rear dots and the front dot as mentioned should be in a line, It depends if you hold that line at a 6 o'clock or at the dead center of the target,

Most of their guns are sighted in at 25 yards,

I had a 45 ACP MP and could not get the thing to hit POA no matter what. I sent in back twice. I gave up and sold it, Not saying your 9mm is the same but that is my experience with the MP line of semi autos,

 

[Magload]

A PF of 133.........................

Heck, some of my X-Lite loads are only hitting a PF of 113
with a 115gr and a FP of 117 with the 124gr plated bullets.

However they are at POA with the factory iron sights.

I had a 147 jacket Speer at just 584 fps for a PF of just 85.8 !!!
Needless to say, I had two FTE but they all cleared the end of the barrel, some how.

DON"T try doing this............
I'm just crazy enough to do dumb things to see how far you can
go, before things go wrong.

750fps is the minimum for a 147gr jacket in my book......
800 fps is even better if you can't get tight ES spreads.

ps;
what type/weight bullet are you shooting & OAL. ( Factory ? )

Ed I am using Berry's Plated 115gr 9mm RN and CFE Pistol 5.2gr. AV 1164 SD 7 ES 19 PF 133 and these are giving me very good groups I could shoot a 1" bulleye out of my targets out to 15yds if I wasn't hitting 1.25 inches low. A 6 o'clock hold is fine a 12 o'clock not so much.

My understanding is that PF for IDPA ESP div is 125 I like to be at 135 so my loads don't have a chance not to pass the chrono test at a shoot. My 1911 in CDP requires 165.

I probably need a heavier bullet and a little slower. I have some 125 coated SWCs Don

 

[Nevada Ed]

You might try a 124gr Remington L9mm2 or Magtech loading
and if those don't work out, the Winchester training 147gr low
recoil load, to see if you can get your pistol to POA...............
c/o factory ammo.

( I don't know if you reload )

If not call S&W and see if they can help.

There is also Brownells that has front and rear sights that may
help, if all else fails.

Grabbing a file is the last resort.

Good luck.

 

[Magload]

As previously posted increasing barrel time by lowering velocity is the primary way POI is raised by changing loads. At the same velocity a heavier bullet should cause the muzzle to recoil up a litter more but that is a lesser consideration.

However, I suspect the main problem here is misunderstanding how S&W's 3 dots sights are intended to be used. Assuming they have not changed since 3rd generation metal guns were the standard they are designed to align all 3 dots in a row and superimpose the front dot over the target. It is a set up for close range self defense that sucks when applied to sporting pistols. The easiest solution for 3rd generation autos was to purchase shorter front sights from S&W. Absent the tritium dot they were inexpensive. I don't even know whether a "9mm 5" Pro" is a M&P variation or a 1911 but a call to S&W seeking a shorter front sight might be your best bet. If the pistol is fairly new they might even change it under warranty just to retain a happy customer.

Pistol was bought in March and that might be a good plan even if I had to pay for it.

I very well understand the 3 dot system for this gun along with the other two systems. Have shot open sights for 55 years and have never been a fan of them but know how to shoot them. My old eyes don't like them at all. This M&P 9mm Pro has the green tube on the front sight (dot) but a completely black rear sight. Proper way to shoot this set up is just like normal open sights, top of front post even with top of back blade equal light on the side put the dot on POA and shoot them. Looking at them I think I can rest the dot on the top of the rear blade and maybe the dot or the top of the post will be POA giving that 1.25" up I need. Don

 

[Magload]

You can "fiddle" all you want but I doubt any change in powder or bullet will change your POA at 15-20 yards yards.

The 3 rear dots and the front dot as mentioned should be in a line, It depends if you hold that line at a 6 o'clock or at the dead center of the target,

Most of their guns are sighted in at 25 yards,

I had a 45 ACP MP and could not get the thing to hit POA no matter what. I sent in back twice. I gave up and sold it, Not saying your 9mm is the same but that is my experience with the MP line of semi autos,

Yes these are SD guns and any where in a 8" circle is good and I think sometimes I expect to much out of them. If I hadn't bought the 1911 R1 and the NM Gold Cup I might have bought into the 3" groups are good enough. This Pro has a Storm-Lake match grade barrel Apex FSS Alum flat face trigger and a Apex Competition kit in it and it groups tight just not where I want the group. Don

 

[Rule3]

Yes these are SD guns and any where in a 8" circle is good and I think sometimes I expect to much out of them. If I hadn't bought the 1911 R1 and the NM Gold Cup I might have bought into the 3" groups are good enough. This Pro has a Storm-Lake match grade barrel Apex FSS Alum flat face trigger and a Apex Competition kit in it and it groups tight just not where I want the group. Don

Mine did the same thing (it did not group and it shot high) and the whole Apex upgrade was suggested. I did not think spending that kind of money was worth it. I returned it to SW and they replaced the barrel. Still no change. I gave up. Not related but I had a FNX 45 that grouped fine but shot 4" high. FN was no hep and did not have any different front sight for the gun. I tried every factory ammo and my own ammo, no change

Not trying to bum you out just stating I have been there, done that and NO t-shirt.

Are you sighting at 6 o clock or dead center?

 

[Calliope]

You're not going to get much meaningful POI shift by changing loads in a 9mm auto. Works well with a .45 Colt SA revolver, but the bore axis and recoil are too low with a 9mm auto.
I think you're going to have to change/adjust the sights.

 

[somebrains]

I put in a taller rear sight in my 229 to fix my poi at 25yds.
It now has a target hold instead of the assumed combat hold that was 2" low from factory.

 

[Magload]

Mine did the same thing (it did not group and it shot high) and the whole Apex upgrade was suggested. I did not think spending that kind of money was worth it. I returned it to SW and they replaced the barrel. Still no change. I gave up. Not related but I had a FNX 45 that grouped fine but shot 4" high. FN was no hep and did not have any different front sight for the gun. I tried every factory ammo and my own ammo, no change

Not trying to bum you out just stating I have been there, done that and NO t-shirt.

Are you sighting at 6 o clock or dead center?

I shoot dead center, 6 o'clock is probably the best for BE at a set distance and the same target but I shoot different distances at a lot of different targets. I could live with 1 to 2 inches high as I could hold for it but that much low and a high hold covers the POI. I hate open fixed sights dots and crosshairs don't have this problem. I can see some Bomar sights going on this gun to match the ones on my Gold Cup. Don

 

[Magload]

I put in a taller rear sight in my 229 to fix my poi at 25yds.
It now has a target hold instead of the assumed combat hold that was 2" low from factory.

Yes I think that is the fix and if I could get a fixed rear that was a little to tall I could file it down to right on the money. Thank you for mentioning that I really don't need to spend the money on adjustable as once adjusted they seldom need changed for this type of shooting. Don

 

[H Richard]

Are you never going to take a shot beyond 15 yards? Factory handguns are set to shoot at aprox 25 yards. When I have a load that shoots a 1 1/2" group consistently, I leave it alone and raise my point of hold up close. Nearly any handgun you pick up with factory non adjustable sights will be shooting the same place, 1-2 " low at 10-12 yards, and just about dead on at 25. If you are shooting IPSC the "A" zone is much larger than that. I don't know anything about IDPA, but imagine the center value is close to the IPSC size. If you are shooting Bullseye, you need to be on at 25 yards, it is never shot any closer outdoors, and the 50 ft. gallery round is primarily a 22RF game.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I have a Hk VP9. POI is low on everything I've tried EXCEPT 147 gn loads. Nature of the beast?

 

[Magload]

Are you never going to take a shot beyond 15 yards? Factory handguns are set to shoot at aprox 25 yards. When I have a load that shoots a 1 1/2" group consistently, I leave it alone and raise my point of hold up close. Nearly any handgun you pick up with factory non adjustable sights will be shooting the same place, 1-2 " low at 10-12 yards, and just about dead on at 25. If you are shooting IPSC the "A" zone is much larger than that. I don't know anything about IDPA, but imagine the center value is close to the IPSC size. If you are shooting Bullseye, you need to be on at 25 yards, it is never shot any closer outdoors, and the 50 ft. gallery round is primarily a 22RF game.

Ya like it or not what you are saying is right on the money. These new night sights shoot the same as the S&W factory sights. IDPA the zero down (center) is 8" not hard to hit out to 20 yards even with out sights. I am going to take the Storm-Lake barrel out and put the factory back in and see if that changes anything. Plus I am learning to shoot the dot not the top of the front blade. That's hard when you been shooting the top of the blade for 55 or more years. Don