Ramp Sight Gap

[Hiram Jr]

I noticed that the front sight on my 1969 19-3 is sticking up off the barrel at the very front. It's a pinned sight. I am not clear on the anatomy of the FS. Are the serrations running the length of the top of the barrel part of the sight base? When I shine a light into the gap (see pics), I can see those serrations underneath. It doesn't seem right. The barrel is 4". It was shipped w/ a 4" so I don't think it was cut.
Any info greatly welcomed!


ADD: Sorry for the sideways pics. Not sure what happened.

 

[Pine_Worker]

I think the barrel has been cut, the barrel marking does not look right.

 

[H Richard]

The front sight just wasn't pressed down fully in the front when the holes were drilled and the pins put in. You would probably mess it up worse attempting to fix it. My only suggestion is to secure the barrel solidly against a bench top and with a punch and hammer, lightly tap the front sight down gently. It probably won't move but if there is any play left, it might seat itself. It won't hurt anything leaving it alone.

I don't think the barrel has been cut.

 

[gdogs]

In that last picture (looking down on front sight) you can see the rib serrations in front of the front sight, to me that says the barrel was cut.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Here is a picture of the left side of the barrel, the Smith & Wesson roll stamp matches other 4" 19-3's, while on the 6" barrel it is further forward, the "&" on the 6" is even with the start of the ejector shroud, while on this one and other 4" it is in the center of the front part of the shroud. If it was cut then it is a really rare gun because the stamp is further back than on a normal 6". We will find out for sure when the letter comes back, but I have it on good authority that it was born a 4". As I say compare the roll stamp of the S&W name between other 4" and 6" and it matches the 4" while the 6" barrels have the name about 3/8" further forward towards the muzzle.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Also in the pictures of the front of the muzzle the OP posted you can see the muzzle is rounded like a factory job, I don't think you can do that with a chopsaw/hacksaw and reamer, all the cut downs I have seen have a flat muzzle even if reamed in the inside, not rounded

 

[gdogs]

Also in the pictures of the front of the muzzle the OP posted you can see the muzzle is rounded like a factory job, I don't think you can do that with a chopsaw/hacksaw and reamer, all the cut downs I have seen have a flat muzzle even if reamed in the inside, not rounded

Any smith proficient enough to reinstall a pinned ramp front sight could round the barrel. I just can't think of a single S&W I've ever seen that had the front sight ramp not line up with the barrel rib at the muzzle. There is clearly a >1/8" gap on yours. If the barrel hasn't been cut, then an incorrect ramp/front sight was installed at some point.

 

[Hiram Jr]

Any smith proficient enough to reinstall a pinned ramp front sight could round the barrel. I just can't think of a single S&W I've ever seen that had the front sight ramp not line up with the barrel rib at the muzzle. There is clearly a >1/8" gap on yours. If the barrel hasn't been cut, then an incorrect ramp/front sight was installed at some point.

I see. Could the sight have been knocked back as the result of being dropped?

 

[gdogs]

I see. Could the sight have been knocked back as the result of being dropped?

No, the pins would make it impossible for the sight to be pushed back due to a drop. Also, the ramp has a half moon tab that fits into a matching pocket in the barrel rib.

 

[chief38]

I see. Could the sight have been knocked back as the result of being dropped?

I'd say no. It would have broken off completely. I too think this is a cut down barrel job and a less than perfect front sight installation.

Even if your letter says the original gun had the same barrel length - it really proves nothing because the barrel could have been changed anyway (same length) for one reason or another.

At this point I'd leave it alone as long as it is accurate and/or until the sight separates. By trying to fix it now would muck it up even worse and probably require a re-finish with the gun as well to match. If it shoots true - I'd leave well enough alone.

 

[2152hq]

I think the orig sight has been pushed back due to the gun being dropped or otherwise struck on the F/Sight.

The blued finish of the bbl all looks factory including the polished over 2 pins holding the ramp on.
If those had been messed with in an aftermarket install, they'd show that. Not the perfect polish and blue that they do.
I don't think it's a cut bbl (with a bad sight re-install). The bbl lettering would be off if it was a 6 down to a 4.

The web that the pins go thru is stout but the pins can shear with enough force if applied to the sight/ramp. The tight fit of the pins betw the ramp and the web do actually act as a 'shears' in cutting action.
The web on the ramp can break though where the pin holes are drilled if there isn't much material betw the hole and the outside edge.

You can test to see if the ramp is sheared off the pins or the web broken through easily enough.

Put the bbl in a padded vise holding it horizontaly.

Take a wooden dowel or a rawhide mallet and tap on the ramp/sight blade from the breech end (back end) and see it it can be pushed back into position,,,,down and forward.

If it can, then the pins are sheared off inside and the tight fit of the ramp web & interference from those sheared off pins is all that's holding it onto the bbl.
You might loose the front sight completely firing some stout ammo if that is the case.
Better to find out before that and re-attach it securely.

If that is NOT the case and it's just a bad factory sight install (the era wasn't the best QC S&W was ever known for),,then decide wether you want to live with it as is, or go for a cosmetic fix up.

JMO

 

[Hiram Jr]

I think the orig sight has been pushed back due to the gun being dropped or otherwise struck on the F/Sight.

The blued finish of the bbl all looks factory including the polished over 2 pins holding the ramp on.
If those had been messed with in an aftermarket install, they'd show that. Not the perfect polish and blue that they do.
I don't think it's a cut bbl (with a bad sight re-install). The bbl lettering would be off if it was a 6 down to a 4.

The web that the pins go thru is stout but the pins can shear with enough force if applied to the sight/ramp. The tight fit of the pins betw the ramp and the web do actually act as a 'shears' in cutting action.
The web on the ramp can break though where the pin holes are drilled if there isn't much material betw the hole and the outside edge.

You can test to see if the ramp is sheared off the pins or the web broken through easily enough.

Put the bbl in a padded vise holding it horizontaly.

Take a wooden dowel or a rawhide mallet and tap on the ramp/sight blade from the breech end (back end) and see it it can be pushed back into position,,,,down and forward.

If it can, then the pins are sheared off inside and the tight fit of the ramp web & interference from those sheared off pins is all that's holding it onto the bbl.
You might loose the front sight completely firing some stout ammo if that is the case.
Better to find out before that and re-attach it securely.

If that is NOT the case and it's just a bad factory sight install (the era wasn't the best QC S&W was ever known for),,then decide wether you want to live with it as is, or go for a cosmetic fix up.

JMO

Yes, the pins are what made me think the bbl is original. They appear to be original, polished flush and blued. If the pins are sheared and/ or the web busted, is it possible for S&W to reset the ramp and replace the pins? I will try the test you sggested. Thanks!
Thanks to all you guys.

 

[Hiram Jr]

I'm trying to visualize what the ramp web and sub-barrel anatomy looks like. Would anybody have a pic of a ramp sight outside the base? Forgive my total ignorance, please

 

[Hiram Jr]

I wrapped the muzzle, held it muzle-down on my bench (no vise yet) and gave it several good raps with a rubber mallet, checking each time for movement. No movement whatsoever. I was nervous to hit the ramp, so I kind of hit the base forward and down. I didn't want to be a victim of Irony and shear the pins! So I might have held back too much. If this sight was pinned this poorly at Smith, QC must have been nursing a hangover that day!

 

[Pine_Worker]

Any smith proficient enough to reinstall a pinned ramp front sight could round the barrel. I just can't think of a single S&W I've ever seen that had the front sight ramp not line up with the barrel rib at the muzzle. There is clearly a >1/8" gap on yours. If the barrel hasn't been cut, then an incorrect ramp/front sight was installed at some point.

Exactly my thought.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

It looks factory to me.

 

[Hiram Jr]

It looks factory to me.

Hi Don,
Do you think it could have been shipped with the sight like that? Or do you believe it may have taken a hit?

 

[Hiram Jr]

Any smith proficient enough to reinstall a pinned ramp front sight could round the barrel. I just can't think of a single S&W I've ever seen that had the front sight ramp not line up with the barrel rib at the muzzle. There is clearly a >1/8" gap on yours. If the barrel hasn't been cut, then an incorrect ramp/front sight was installed at some point.

You call that pin job proficient? Seems to me that whoever pinned that sight did not crown the barrel.

 

[Pine_Worker]

Here is a picture of the front sight assembly. I don't think dropping the gun on it's sight would move it enough to shear the pins.

 

[Hiram Jr]

Here is a picture of the front sight assembly. I don't think dropping the gun on it's sight would move it enough to shear the pins.

Thank you!

 

[Doc44]

I am surprised a revolver with this type of defect would pass final inspection. Normally, the ramp base is in line with the end of the barrel rib. When your 19-3 was made, it was normal to pin the ramp base to the barrel using two pins. The lines on top of the barrel ran to the end so the ramp base was pinned on top of them. This is normal for Model 19s, Model 25s, Model 29s, and Model 57s. By 1973, the ramp base was forged with the barrel and the ramp (Baughman or red ramp) was pinned to the ramp base with single pin.

Bill

 

[Hiram Jr]

I am surprised a revolver with this type of defect would pass final inspection. Normally, the ramp base is in line with the end of the barrel rib. When your 19-3 was made, it was normal to pin the ramp base to the barrel using two pins. The lines on top of the barrel ran to the end so the ramp base was pinned on top of them. This is normal for Model 19s, Model 25s, Model 29s, and Model 57s. By 1973, the ramp base was forged with the barrel and the ramp (Baughman or red ramp) was pinned to the ramp base with single pin.

Bill

Bill,
I'm glad to hear the base was installed on top of the lines. That was my big concern. That's why I initially thought it was cut. I couldn't understand why it (the base) was not sitting in a milled notch. Unbelievable that it would leave the factory like that, but I am convinced it did. Mine has 2 pins that run through and are polished flat and blued.
Even if just the sight was later added, the holes would have lined up with the new base, right? In other words, these holes were drilled originally in the wrong location.

 

[Hiram Jr]

I should tell them to fix it for free!

 

[Pine_Worker]

The sight is placed in the correct position, then the holes are drilled thru the rib and sight, then the pins are installed. Regardless, the sight was not installed in the correct position.

 

[Doc44]

A properly mounted red ramp/ramp base on a Model 19-3 shipped in 1971. Note the lines on the barrel under the base.

Bill

 

[Hiram Jr]

The sight is placed in the correct position, then the holes are drilled thru the rib and sight, then the pins are installed. Regardless, the sight was not installed in the correct position.

That's what I said. Barrel was NOT not cut, as you said. The sight was put on incorrectly, as others have said.

 

[Hiram Jr]

A properly mounted red ramp/ramp base on a Model 19-3 shipped in 1971. Note the lines on the barrel under the base.

Bill

That's the proof, right there! Thank you. My sight was put on at the factory, too far back from the muzzle.

 

[Hiram Jr]

So, to have it repaired (not by me!):



1) Remove pins
2) Slide base forward until flush with muzzle
3) Drill holes through existing hole in the barrel, through the sight base, provided the holes are not anywhere near the barrel holes. Otherwise the existing holes in the base could be elongated.
4) Re-pin


Am I close? Is this something that is do-able by a truly proficient smith?

 

[Pine_Worker]

That's what I said. Barrel was NOT not cut, as you said. The sight was put on incorrectly, as others have said.

Oh well, first impressions are not always right.

 

[Hiram Jr]

Oh well, first impressions are not always right.

I hear ya. Those pics weren't all that great. Thanks for the FS assembly pic!