This was going to be a "shameless bump" of the recent Performance Center thread, but it's really it's own topic and specifically about two of my PC target pistols. If you can share a story of how YOU first discovered S&W PC pistols, please do that in this thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...our-personal-performance-center-epiphany.html
Last week my buddy and I planned an epic range day and I took a large group of guns and we arrived on site at 9am and we rolled out with packed gear by 6:30 pm. I would say this is a typical trip for us... truth is, it used to be but these days we tend to stick more around 5-6 hours in length. So this one was a big one and what a wonderful day we had.
I always seem to have specific goals on each range trip, typically it is some manner of testing a new handload. Where it concerns PC guns, I had been wanting to develop some "specific accuracy loads" for a couple of them -- my 845 and 952-1.
Most of my 9mm and .45 ammo is very average, Xtreme Plated RN bullets (124 and 230gr, respectively) and both run very well across all of my different pistols, and run well in my PC guns also, but the idea here was to try and develop even more precision loads. To that end, I was not working on my ability with either of these two fine handguns, I was instead doing the shooting from a sandbag rest at paper targets that were 12 yards down range.
For the 845, I brought three different handloads and simply because the setting was right, I also brought an additional pistol to give me an idea how it falls under the 845 in accuracy potential. That pistol was a mint, nearly NIB Model 745 IPSC. The three loads were as follows... one running an Xtreme 200gr plated Flat Point, one running the Precision Delta 185gr JHP bullet and the third running the historic H&G 68, 200gr LSWC slug, this one made by Penn Bullets. All three loads were running charges of Bullseye powder.
I expected the Xtreme 200gr FP to be a solid load from either pistol, but this is a low-cost bullet and in my experience with handguns... accuracy in ammo is basically all about the bullet. I found in the 845 when shooting from a rest that these loads were printing very tight groups, certainly a smaller group than I was likely to pull off on my own without the help of a rest and tighter than I would expect from an average production handgun. The same load in the 745 IPSC was acceptable but not mind-blowing. For sure, the 745 takes more work to shoot well, the trigger is far heavier and demands you put in the effort to overcome the difference.
The 185gr JHP load was better than the 200gr Plated load in the 845, better enough that you could tell, but it was -FAR- better than the 200gr Plated load in the 745 IPSC. These bullets cost a good bit more than the Xtreme, but they can also be purchased in bulk so it's not like buying 100-count boxes.
And for the 200gr LSWC, this marked the first time I had ever attempted cast lead in my 845... or any of my PC guns, to be honest. This is a classic load known for decades by serious Bullseye shooters and it absolutely did not disappoint from either pistol. These were one-hole groups every time from the 845, and awfully nice, tight groups from the production 745 pistol. Also worth noting that I had zero failures across all three loads and two different pistols on the day. Not that either gun ever gives me any grief (they do NOT), but simply saying that it's something you do keep an eye out for when trying totally new bullet shapes and loads in your guns.
Now to the 952-1... though I do love this pistol a WHOLE lot, I have had the slightest bit of disappointment in two ways... first is that I simply cannot EVER shoot any 9mm handgun at the elite level of a .45 or .38 Wadcutter from my Model 52's. I believe part of that is the blast and pressure associated with a full 35k PSI cartridge where the other two run about half that. And I have long thought that the other angle was never cooking up a solid "accuracy load" in 9mm.
My other disappointment with my 952-1 is that since I have owned it, I have done some excellent shooting with it (and enjoyed every magazine through it) but I have never been able to beat my old stand-by "best" 9mm handgun with it, that being my EAA (Tanfoglio) Witness Elite Match in any head-to-head shooting. No matter when I have tried it, target for target, the Tanfoglio has always reigned supreme for me.
So today's showdown was to see if my new 9mm accuracy load was worth the effort and increased cost -AND- to see if finally the 952-1 could distinguish itself as more accurate or precise or capable over the Tanfoglio Elite Match.
I am pleased to say that one of those goals has been accomplished! The accuracy load uses the Hornady 125gr HAP bullet and a charge of Hodgdon Longshot powder. The HAP slug was designed as a bullet similar in construction to the famed Hornady XTP, but less costly to manufacture. HAP stands for "Hornady Action Pistol" and the manufacturer pushes it as a bullet that offers the renowned accuracy of the XTP but at less cost. Many report that both the 115 and 125gr HAP bullets are naturally accurate slugs for 9mm.
I shot the 952-1 first with this load, I had shot this load twice before... first was simply a 15-round trial months back to ensure that I had full function and safety and the second time out, I was shooting standing with a two-hand hold. This is the kind of shooting that I want to develop the load for... but I use the sand bag to help tell me if what happens down range is the hardware or the software.
In any case, the 952-1 laid down the tightest groups I have ever managed in the year & a half I have owned this pistol. Not quite single ragged hole, but awfully close when I took my time and did my part. Group sizes again trailing what I could do with the 845... but still very pleasing since I have NEVER been able to do this well with any 9mm.
Sadly (or happily, depending on your viewing angle...), the 952-1 once again simply could not eclipse the ability of my Tanfoglio Elite Match. The Tanfoglio made groups that were nearly indistinguishable from the elite PC pistol... and a few that seemed a little tighter. And this gun has a trigger that is awfully good, but not quite to the level of the 952-1.
Instead of being disappointed that the 952-1 couldn't shake off a far less expensive pistol... it does make me appreciate the Tanfoglio even more. This is a handgun that I purchased new six and a half years ago and has run over 5,000 documented rounds of ammo. It has been a ROCK, and I have to say that as new production firearms go, it's the best experience that I have ever had and worth every penny of the $519 I spent on it back in 2011.
Conclusions based on these exercises? Many conclusions!
I believe that I am done (for a while anyway) looking for a "newer, better" target load for .45 and 9mm, as I think I have them nailed down right now. I would love to replicate these same tests, using just the 200gr LSWC from the the .45 and the 125gr HAP from the 9mm, but do it from the sand bag again at 25 yards. I realize that Bullseye shooters and some folks that have made & marketed target handguns have used 50 yards as an accuracy standard, but I simply do not see myself shooting 50 yards with a handgun on to a paper target. I do love to slap steel plates at ludicrous distances with a handgun, but that is never more than goofing around for me.
Nine and a half hours at the gun range is a fantastic way to spend a day and great fall weather makes it even better. We did spend about 3 hours of that over on the rifle range, but there were no S&W involved in that session. There was more S&W involved in the 6+ hours we spent on the handgun range... maybe in another post.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...our-personal-performance-center-epiphany.html
Last week my buddy and I planned an epic range day and I took a large group of guns and we arrived on site at 9am and we rolled out with packed gear by 6:30 pm. I would say this is a typical trip for us... truth is, it used to be but these days we tend to stick more around 5-6 hours in length. So this one was a big one and what a wonderful day we had.
I always seem to have specific goals on each range trip, typically it is some manner of testing a new handload. Where it concerns PC guns, I had been wanting to develop some "specific accuracy loads" for a couple of them -- my 845 and 952-1.
Most of my 9mm and .45 ammo is very average, Xtreme Plated RN bullets (124 and 230gr, respectively) and both run very well across all of my different pistols, and run well in my PC guns also, but the idea here was to try and develop even more precision loads. To that end, I was not working on my ability with either of these two fine handguns, I was instead doing the shooting from a sandbag rest at paper targets that were 12 yards down range.
For the 845, I brought three different handloads and simply because the setting was right, I also brought an additional pistol to give me an idea how it falls under the 845 in accuracy potential. That pistol was a mint, nearly NIB Model 745 IPSC. The three loads were as follows... one running an Xtreme 200gr plated Flat Point, one running the Precision Delta 185gr JHP bullet and the third running the historic H&G 68, 200gr LSWC slug, this one made by Penn Bullets. All three loads were running charges of Bullseye powder.
I expected the Xtreme 200gr FP to be a solid load from either pistol, but this is a low-cost bullet and in my experience with handguns... accuracy in ammo is basically all about the bullet. I found in the 845 when shooting from a rest that these loads were printing very tight groups, certainly a smaller group than I was likely to pull off on my own without the help of a rest and tighter than I would expect from an average production handgun. The same load in the 745 IPSC was acceptable but not mind-blowing. For sure, the 745 takes more work to shoot well, the trigger is far heavier and demands you put in the effort to overcome the difference.
The 185gr JHP load was better than the 200gr Plated load in the 845, better enough that you could tell, but it was -FAR- better than the 200gr Plated load in the 745 IPSC. These bullets cost a good bit more than the Xtreme, but they can also be purchased in bulk so it's not like buying 100-count boxes.
And for the 200gr LSWC, this marked the first time I had ever attempted cast lead in my 845... or any of my PC guns, to be honest. This is a classic load known for decades by serious Bullseye shooters and it absolutely did not disappoint from either pistol. These were one-hole groups every time from the 845, and awfully nice, tight groups from the production 745 pistol. Also worth noting that I had zero failures across all three loads and two different pistols on the day. Not that either gun ever gives me any grief (they do NOT), but simply saying that it's something you do keep an eye out for when trying totally new bullet shapes and loads in your guns.
Now to the 952-1... though I do love this pistol a WHOLE lot, I have had the slightest bit of disappointment in two ways... first is that I simply cannot EVER shoot any 9mm handgun at the elite level of a .45 or .38 Wadcutter from my Model 52's. I believe part of that is the blast and pressure associated with a full 35k PSI cartridge where the other two run about half that. And I have long thought that the other angle was never cooking up a solid "accuracy load" in 9mm.
My other disappointment with my 952-1 is that since I have owned it, I have done some excellent shooting with it (and enjoyed every magazine through it) but I have never been able to beat my old stand-by "best" 9mm handgun with it, that being my EAA (Tanfoglio) Witness Elite Match in any head-to-head shooting. No matter when I have tried it, target for target, the Tanfoglio has always reigned supreme for me.
So today's showdown was to see if my new 9mm accuracy load was worth the effort and increased cost -AND- to see if finally the 952-1 could distinguish itself as more accurate or precise or capable over the Tanfoglio Elite Match.
I am pleased to say that one of those goals has been accomplished! The accuracy load uses the Hornady 125gr HAP bullet and a charge of Hodgdon Longshot powder. The HAP slug was designed as a bullet similar in construction to the famed Hornady XTP, but less costly to manufacture. HAP stands for "Hornady Action Pistol" and the manufacturer pushes it as a bullet that offers the renowned accuracy of the XTP but at less cost. Many report that both the 115 and 125gr HAP bullets are naturally accurate slugs for 9mm.
I shot the 952-1 first with this load, I had shot this load twice before... first was simply a 15-round trial months back to ensure that I had full function and safety and the second time out, I was shooting standing with a two-hand hold. This is the kind of shooting that I want to develop the load for... but I use the sand bag to help tell me if what happens down range is the hardware or the software.
In any case, the 952-1 laid down the tightest groups I have ever managed in the year & a half I have owned this pistol. Not quite single ragged hole, but awfully close when I took my time and did my part. Group sizes again trailing what I could do with the 845... but still very pleasing since I have NEVER been able to do this well with any 9mm.
Sadly (or happily, depending on your viewing angle...), the 952-1 once again simply could not eclipse the ability of my Tanfoglio Elite Match. The Tanfoglio made groups that were nearly indistinguishable from the elite PC pistol... and a few that seemed a little tighter. And this gun has a trigger that is awfully good, but not quite to the level of the 952-1.
Instead of being disappointed that the 952-1 couldn't shake off a far less expensive pistol... it does make me appreciate the Tanfoglio even more. This is a handgun that I purchased new six and a half years ago and has run over 5,000 documented rounds of ammo. It has been a ROCK, and I have to say that as new production firearms go, it's the best experience that I have ever had and worth every penny of the $519 I spent on it back in 2011.
Conclusions based on these exercises? Many conclusions!
- my face hurts from ear-to-ear grins when I see what these guns can do, and more so when they are fed even better ammo
- 845 is crazy accurate with basic plinking fodder, but it definitely appreciates purpose-built target ammo also. The 185gr JHP is a fine load, but the 200gr LSWC will out-shoot it and cost less to make at the same time
- The 845 is no snob when it comes to running old-school cast lead bullet ammo and I could find no evidence of anything left behind in my barrel, either. I plan to make MORE of this ammo!
- The 745 is a fantastic pistol but the exercise here confirms what I was already pretty sure that I knew -- it's a production handgun and it is capable, but it cannot print the kinds of tight groups that a truly elite target handgun can, and that fact doesn't make me love it any less
- There is a definitely and easily seen GAIN when you build an accuracy load for 9mm. These HAP bullets are not low in cost (compared to buying Xtreme plated in bulk) but if the game is target work on paper, they are a fine value and an upgrade in ability
- I will always love the 952-1 for many reasons, but my Tanfoglio Elite Match is one extremely special handgun
- I don't believe that I'll ever be able to shoot even an elite-level 9mm as accurately as I can with a similarly elite .45cal or .38 Wadcutter pistol, but it's a lot of fun trying
I believe that I am done (for a while anyway) looking for a "newer, better" target load for .45 and 9mm, as I think I have them nailed down right now. I would love to replicate these same tests, using just the 200gr LSWC from the the .45 and the 125gr HAP from the 9mm, but do it from the sand bag again at 25 yards. I realize that Bullseye shooters and some folks that have made & marketed target handguns have used 50 yards as an accuracy standard, but I simply do not see myself shooting 50 yards with a handgun on to a paper target. I do love to slap steel plates at ludicrous distances with a handgun, but that is never more than goofing around for me.
Nine and a half hours at the gun range is a fantastic way to spend a day and great fall weather makes it even better. We did spend about 3 hours of that over on the rifle range, but there were no S&W involved in that session. There was more S&W involved in the 6+ hours we spent on the handgun range... maybe in another post.
