Range verses self defense ammunition

[drcotlar]

I am sure the answer to this question is obvious to the more experience shooters on this board, but not clear to me. As most self-defense shootings occur at short distances why would range ammunition not be sufficient in that situation? In the range shooting that I do with my 9 mm and 380 guns at 5 to 7 yards, I certainly would not want to be in the path of those range rounds.
Of course I am aware that range ammunition is not the same as self defense ammunition.

 

[AJ]

Most range ammo will work for defense ammo at close range. That is on someone wearing normal street clothes. If in winter wear it may not due to the heavier clothing. I would not hesitate to use my target load of 2.8 Grains of Bullseye with a 148 grain wadcutter in .38 Special if that was all i had. Something kept in the nightstand for defense at night has heavier loading. Something carried on my hip or shoulder holster has even heavier loading. Depends on the situation.....

 

[Frailer]

Ammo designed for self-defense is intended to penetrate deep enough to reach something vital yet not continue sailing off into the next county.

FMJ 9mm penetrates like nobody’s business.

Most folks also want to get some expansion with the bullet hits the target, and range ammo doesn’t do that.

Edited to add: for the record, I’m not poo-pooing “range ammo.” I don’t want to get hit with a rock from a slingshot, much less a piece of lead traveling at roughly the speed of sound. Where the bullet goes is much more important that what it looks like.

 

[biku324]

I use the same factory ammo for both in semi-autos - Winchester 230 grain FMJ flat point for 45 ACP, Remington 180 grain FMJ flat point in 40 S&W, then American Eagle 158 grain SP or JHP (whichever is on hand) for 357. Penetration is the most important job of a handgun bullet, IMO.

 

[LVSteve]

What is the OP calling range ammo? Do they mean powder puff handloads or factory FMJ for the steel folks, think 115 gr at barely more than 1100 fps.

 

[nra jim]

A cautionary tale on 9mm fmj for self defense, I have a friend who was shot 10 times and ended up with 17 holes between entrance and exit holes. We'll long story short he drove himself to the hospital and was released 4 days later.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[biku324]

Not a 9 fan, even though rules forced me to carry one a few times.

 

[AJ]

A cautionary tale on 9mm fmj for self defense, I have a friend who was shot 10 times and ended up with 17 holes between entrance and exit holes. We'll long story short he drove himself to the hospital and was released 4 days later.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Not a 9 fan, even though rules forced me to carry one a few times.

No ammo is sure of stopping someone. You have to hit the vitals inside to put what you are shooting at down. If you don't hit the vitals and just get through and through hits chances are the individual may keep fighting. Reference Platt in the Miami FBI Shoot Out 1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia Proper bullet placement is the key.

 

[biku324]

Larger holes are more likely to be open wounds that incapacitate quickly. Our experience with the 9mm in the NMSP was less than edifying. They've switched to it again (from 45 ACP, then 357 Sig) because ammo and training is cheaper and 9mm field end results are the same as as they were in the 90s.

You shoot until the threat stops; if it stops with one or two rounds, great. The more rounds you have to fire, the higher the risk to you and to others.

 

[GaryS]

As someone once said, if the first shot is justified every shot after that until the threat is stopped is justified.

Some people seem to think you fire one shot, stop to see if it stopped the threat, then shoot another shot if necessary, stop to see if it stopped the threat...

Larger holes are more likely to be open wounds that incapacitate quickly. Our experience with the 9mm in the NMSP was less than edifying. They've switched to it again (from 45 ACP, then 357 Sig) because ammo and training is cheaper and 9mm field end results are the same as as they were in the 90s.

You shoot until the threat stops; if it stops with one or two rounds, great. The more rounds you have to fire, the higher the risk to you and to others.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

One argument for "range" ammo for SD is that the lighter recoil allows for faster follow up shots and is easier control for those with problems due to
aging, arthritis and similar problems. And again, "Speed (and Power) is fine, but Accuracy's final."

 

[AJ]

Larger holes are more likely to be open wounds that incapacitate quickly. Our experience with the 9mm in the NMSP was less than edifying. They've switched to it again (from 45 ACP, then 357 Sig) because ammo and training is cheaper and 9mm field end results are the same as as they were in the 90s.

You shoot until the threat stops; if it stops with one or two rounds, great. The more rounds you have to fire, the higher the risk to you and to others.

That is a good argument for large caliber bullets. However, I remember being told about a victim that was shot 6 times with a .45 ACP. He was getting u off the gurney to got get the "***" that shot him. Was told this by some friends that were LASO SEB, so I believed them. Gotta hit the vital organs or major bones for surer stops.

 

[drcotlar]

Another argument for range ammo that I have read is that such a round is less likely to go through and through the victim. I am sure that view is not universally agreed on.

 

[max]

When I am at the range, I am shooting fmj 9mm, usually factory, but sometimes reloads. The other round I shoot at the range is a .45 200gr lead swc reload.

I EDC a 9mm and it is loaded with factory JHP's. As has been stated, 9mm fmj tends to over penetrate. I would not be afraid to use my .45 reload as a self defense load if necessary. However, there is a magazine of factory jhp's beside it in the safe.

 

[Doug M.]

Any ammo is better than none, but the meaning of "range ammo" can vary by use and individual. Pistol rounds are sub-optimal for self defense. Anyone who has reason to think they need a gun and can't be elsewhere (cops, mostly) should be carrying a long gun with which they are proficient. A quality AR with duty ammo is often the best, but in some locales maybe politically ill-advised. A 30-30 or .357 lever gun is a good choice for those places.

As noted by AJ, a .38 WC is often adequate. I generally carry standard velocity SWC .38s in my M66 - the bullet shape is optimal, and it is quite controllable in fast shooting. 9mm FMJ is ... well under optimal, and the wounds are often like the from an ice pick. As noted by Frailer, getting shot with anything is going to suck.

Some important points: One, you must know the parts of the body at which to aim and hit. In crude terms, draw a line between the nipples, then upward lines toward the shoulders, with the upper horizontal line at about the shoulders. Most of the vitals that matter are up there. On the head, a triangle between the outer edges of the eyes and the nostrils. From the side, roughly the ear opening. More access to the CNS, and less bony skull.

In other strings, I have cited to the excellent book by Urey Patrick and John Hall, "In defense of Self and Others ..." Google it. The third edition is the current one. While directed at LE, there are a lot of lessons the rest of us can apply. The 4th chapter discusses ballistic reality. If you do not have and read a copy, you are not intellectually prepared.

The leading authority on ammo performance today, a student of Dr. Fackler, is Dr. Gary Roberts, who is both a trauma dentistry teacher/practitioner, and a cop. Find his testing and pick a round you can get in volume and test for function in your platform.

If you can make the time, the "Primary and Secondary" podcasts are reality based. I think #400 just came out - it is long, but worth it.

Remember this, too: if there is a place or activity that you would not go unarmed, you most likely should not be there armed. I have to go to Tacoma for a training conference later this coming month. I'd rather not be there, but the conference is good and professionally necessary. I'll be carrying a G17 and at least two spare mags.

 

[biku324]

As someone once said, if the first shot is justified every shot after that until the threat is stopped is justified.

Some people seem to think you fire one shot, stop to see if it stopped the threat, then shoot another shot if necessary, stop to see if it stopped the threat...

Justified legally is much less important in the midst of an incident than getting the incident quickly resolved. An extra few seconds or an extra few rounds fired from either adversary increases risk to the good guy/gal and anyone at all within range.

Not the theory, but the performance of the 9mm in the NMSP in shootings since adopting it the second time is precisely as it was the first time - more rounds per incident fired, slower resolution of the threat. Are there anecdotal examples of 357 magnum, 45 ACP, and 357 Sig failures? Sure. But over the long term and total numbers of incidents, those 3 calibers tend to require fewer rounds fired to resolve incidents. Time saved and risk reduced.

I'm not crusading, just explaining why I prefer not to carry 9mm even though I have in harm's way on two continents.

 

[petepeterson]

Another argument for range ammo that I have read is that such a round is less likely to go through and through the victim. I am sure that view is not universally agreed on.

I would think it's almost universally disagreed with.

 

[gym cat]

IMO It all works.. Shot placement is everything!!!!!!

 

[Pisgah]

A cautionary tale on 9mm fmj for self defense, I have a friend who was shot 10 times and ended up with 17 holes between entrance and exit holes. We'll long story short he drove himself to the hospital and was released 4 days later.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

But, did he keep on doing what he had been doing before being shot? I think not...

So, he was stopped.

 

[Rpg]

The only significant difference between range ammo and self defense ammo is the cost.

At self defense rangese, if you hit the target, you’ll do fine.