Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet

[Rastoff]

Finally passed the challenge, with none touching the line.

Hmmm, no PM yet.

 

[therewolf]

Well, that's great stuff.

Do you also instruct situational awareness, and being

alert to where you are, what you're doing?

Because two-thirds of the battle is in not putting yourself into,

or being in, a situation where shooting is needed, in the first

place, right?

Because target practice is arguably worthwhile, even though

most defensive encounters are going to be very close range.

Tight groups are going to damage the same tissue, rather

than opening the group up to do more tissue damage. Tight

groups are also going to take more time, at a point when

tenths of a second count...

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

Well, that's great stuff.

Do you also instruct situational awareness, and being

alert to where you are, what you're doing?

Because two-thirds of the battle is in not putting yourself into,

or being in, a situation where shooting is needed, in the first

place, right?

Because target practice is arguably worthwhile, even though

most defensive encounters are going to be very close range.

Tight groups are going to damage the same tissue, rather

than opening the group up to do more tissue damage. Tight

groups are also going to take more time, at a point when

tenths of a second count...

Looks like another troll to me.

 

[SixShooter14]

Looks like another troll to me.

Yup, I think he missed the point of this exercise.

 

[blackhorse2010]

Targets printed, headed to the range on Wednesday.
Will post the results.

 

[SixShooter14]

Almost time for me to try round 2. Shot 8rnds at 10yds last week and had them all within an open hand. Still learning to control exactly when I want each round to go off. Focus, focus, focus....

 

[Rastoff]

Do you also instruct situational awareness, and being alert to where you are, what you're doing?
Because two-thirds of the battle is in not putting yourself into,
or being in, a situation where shooting is needed, in the first
place, right?

Are you sure it's 2/3rds and not 7/8ths? How about 9/16ths?

Seriously, there is a lot I teach that is not included here.

Because target practice is arguably worthwhile, even though most defensive encounters are going to be very close range.

Target practice is always valuable. There are different kinds of practice though. I believe it is important to practice both precision and speed. This is a precision exercise.

Tight groups are going to damage the same tissue, rather than opening the group up to do more tissue damage. Tight groups are also going to take more time, at a point when tenths of a second count...

No, this is abjectly incorrect. If you're going to question what we're doing here, use accurate analogies. Two shots through the same hole will have the effect of one shot. Two shots that are close, by definition, will damage different tissue.

Speed and accuracy are two different, yet related, aspects of shooting. If we had all the time in the world, like this challenge, we can be very accurate. If we go absolutely as fast as we can, the pair will not be very accurate. It's likely that we'll miss the target altogether.

The goal is to find the balance between speed and accuracy that is the most effective in a self-defense scenario. To do this it is valuable to first determine just how accurate we can be. Hence the value of this challenge. Then, once we know we can put a few rounds close together, start shooting controlled pairs. To judge how well we're doing with controlled pairs, examine the distance between the two. The standard is two shots within a fist sized group in the thoracic cavity:

• If they are not within the thoracic cavity, start over by practicing your precision.
• If they are closer than a fist, speed up.
• If they are further than a fist, slow down.

No timer is necessary, but it is fun to use one. The idea is to go as fast as you can while hitting the intended target and keeping the pair close enough to each other.

A lot of guys have come here and said this isn't representative of the real world. Well no duh! They go on to say that we should be shooting while moving, one handed, at different targets...blah, blah, blah. That stuff is indeed a great thing to work toward, but not possible for many. Some don't have a range that will allow that. Some are physically unable. So, I've devised a simple challenge that anyone can shoot at just about any range and is difficult enough to make us work at it.

Now, I've taken the time to answer your questions politely. Are you going to try the challenge or is it too difficult for you? Hmmm? If this is not your bag, try my Challenge II or III. They are different and maybe more representative of what you're looking for.

***For the record: I don't think you're a troll, but at least try the challenge before critiquing it.***

 

[Rastoff]

Almost time for me to try round 2. Shot 8rnds at 10yds last week and had them all within an open hand. Still learning to control exactly when I want each round to go off. Focus, focus, focus....

A mental exercise that I use when trying for high precision is, "Build pressure on the trigger." All I'm trying to do is build pressure while holding the front sight on target.

 

[blackhorse2010]

Targets printed, headed to the range on Wednesday.
Will post the results.

It may have to wait a few more days.
Just got my nose cauterized yesterday.
Yay.

 

[Bob O]

Wouldn't want to be bleeding all over your pistol.

 

[blackhorse2010]

Wouldn't want to be bleeding all over your pistol.

Trying to shoot on Percocet is not high on my list of things to do.

 

[gnystrom]

Great shooting guys

 

[Rastoff]

Trying to shoot on Percocet is not high on my list of things to do.

Yeah, that would not be a good plan. Wise choice. We'll still be here when you get healed up.

 

[blackhorse2010]

Nerve Wracking

I was finally able to get out to the range today.
I brought my SW PC 1911 and my Kimber Pro Carry II along with a few different brands and types of ammo.
I warmed up with about 50 rounds and "got my mind right" and proceeded with the challenge with the PC 1911.

Here's the first target using Winchester 230gr Train and Defend FMJ:



No all too bad but I knew I could do better so I switched to WC 200gr HAP Match Reloads:



Close, but no cigar.
Loaded up the WC 200gr HAP Match Factory ammo and had at it.



Talk about nerve wracking! I was finally able to nail the 10 yard shots which were my downfall with the previous tries.

Beaming and full of success I tried it with my Kimber 4" Pro Carry II and failed miserably. Completely different trigger feel.
Next time, I'll get it with the Kimber.

Thanks for the challenge!!!

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

Blackhorse, very good shooting. Try it again without warming up, that is one of the Boss' (Rastoff) suggestions.

 

[fpuhan]

Feeling Humbled

Wow, you guys are really giving a newbie something to shoot for (pun intended). I've only been shooting for less than a month (I bought my first gun on Black Friday and went to the range with my son-in-law on Saturday, the 28th).

The best (and I emphasize the word "best") I've been able to do are represented by the two photos below. The silhouette target was at 15' (5 yards). Six shots to the torso, six to the head. I was high on two of the head shots, and low and to the left on most of the others (which is, I understand, grip-related).

The circle target was at 12' (4 yards), also 12 rounds.

I was shooting Blazer Brass 124gr FMJ. My gun was my soon-to-be concealed carry Sig P938 (don't worry guys, the M&P Pro is my fun/range gun!).

With practice, I hope I can approach the same neighborhood as you!

 

[Rastoff]

First of all blackhorse2010, all three of those targets are very good. Further, they are better than most I see regardless of gun, trigger, ammo or warm up shots. However...

I warmed up with about 50 rounds...

And...

I brought my SW PC 1911...

...this does exceed two of the parameters in the OP.

Since this is posted in the Concealed Carry & Self Defense forum, I wanted to make the challenge with that in mind. We don't get warm up shots when we have to defend ourselves. Therefore, the ides is to shoot it cold; the first 20 shots of the day.

When I practice, I feel the first two shots I take are the most important. They are the closest I'll ever get to a defensive situation on the street without being in a real one. So, those two shots tell me how I might do in the real world (I add pressure with a timer). Also, we don't get to select the gun. What we brought with us is what we have to use. The same could be said for this challenge. It's one aspect that makes this challenge so challenging.

The first part is to use a gun, any gun, that you do or might carry for self-defense. Do you use your full size 1911 S&W Performance Center, with specially tuned trigger and slide, for regular carry? If you do, then it's the perfect gun for this challenge. If you don't, then it doesn't really meet the spirit.

The second aspect is to use the gun as you would use it on the street. The 1911 has a slight advantage here because they have a great single action trigger and that's how they are used all the time. I use a 1911 myself. The gun pictured in the OP is one I carry regularly.

Brother, you are an amazing shot. Seriously, one of the best in this thread. Don't take what I said above as a criticism. It's just an explanation of what I laid down in the OP. It's hard and it's supposed to be hard. You're right there.

 

[blackhorse2010]

I actually OWB carry the PC during colder months or with any weather requiring a jacket of sweatshirt, such as we have now.
During the summer I IWB carry the 4" Kimber.
I missed the part about not warming up, but the challenge was fun regardless.
I'll hit the range again in a week or so and give it a go cold.

Thanks again!
Steve

 

[Rastoff]

Thanks again!
Steve

Thank you for playing with us. You really are a good shot and I like hanging with guys who can shoot. Makes me feel safer.

 

[shakyshoot]

Finally made it with a double action revolver. GP100 4", and with .357 ammo, too. The group was a hair smaller than 1 1/2".