Realistic handgun training for CCW

[f8 crusader]

We have discussed the best handguns, ammo type and holsters combinations for our CCW needs but what about proper handgun training?, I am not talking about standing in front of your target at a known range, wearing the proper eye and hearing protection, aim at your target and fire a well placed round, perhaps a quick follow up shot every now and then ( your mind is telling you, ammo is expensive, don't waste it).
Now I have seen totally the opposite too, a shooter blasting away at a large bad guy type target as fast as he can empty his handgun with zero results.
I am not pretending to be an expert on the subject but consider myself a serious "student" of this subject.
How many of us can afford to attend one of the top shooting schools in the country to get the proper training?, a week off from work, the cost of travel, food, lodging, car rental, the actual cost of the school and at least 1,500 round of premium ammo per class (the top notch schools will not allow you to use second rate ammo), also, in order to attend an advanced course (your ultimate goal) you need to graduate from their beginner/intermediate course (another week long class and more expenses).
Maybe these requirements are too extreme for the average citizen that carries concealed but what about the responsibilities of carrying concealed?, My son is going to apply for his permit but not before he gets the proper training and I feel that he is ready.
In the real world it is very hard to receive this type of professional training, but I do believe that we can try to make our shooting sessions more realistic, you'll be surprised what is like to fire your snubby 357 magnum without hearing protection but in the real world that is what's going to happen and you need to experience that and keep focused and handle the situation, at least once..yes, I am deaf from too many years of "realistic" type shooting and actual shooting conditions as a Marine.
Any comments? suggestions? I do enjoy learning from others.
Semper Fi

 

[Skeeziks]

I agree with everything except not wearing any protection for the hearing and eyes.
I cannot stress this enough. Do Not subject your son to gun fire without the proper hearing & eye protection.

Be safe....

 

[f8 crusader]

I agree with everything except not wearing any protection for the hearing and eyes.
I cannot stress this enough. Do Not subject your son to gun fire without the proper hearing & eye protection.

Be safe....

No sir, by no means will I allow that, I always insist in wearing the proper protection, what I am saying is that at some point. at least once, a person needs to experience what is like to hear the report of the weapon they are using.
It's best to find out what it feels like while in a training enviroment instead of an actual shooting situation.
But then I could be wrong.

 

[photoman]

No sir, by no means will I allow that, I always insist in wearing the proper protection, what I am saying is that at some point. at least once, a person needs to experience what is like to hear the report of the weapon they are using.
It's best to find out what it feels like while in a training enviroment instead of an actual shooting situation.
But then I could be wrong.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure how valid it is. Most people that have been in actual shootings have stated they didn't even notice the noise or blast from their gun.

Regarding training, I attended a eight hour Suarez course on point shooting that cost $100 and it was worth every penny. Shooting on a range that permits shooting and moving is not only good practice, but lots of fun too!

 

[Skeeziks]

what I am saying is that at some point. at least once, a person needs to experience what is like to hear the report of the weapon they are using. But then I could be wrong.

No, you're right.... I agree with that. I just misunderstood.

Back to your main point...I always practice real-world "tactical-type" shooting scenarios. I started this years ago when the thought of tacking up a bullseye and shooting at it from a stationary position at a given distance was about as thrilling as watching paint dry. I did it to make shooting more fun.
I believe it's our responsibility as CWP holders to practice more than just our marksmanship. Not everyone knows that the first thing you should do when the bad guy's trying to kill you is Not to try and draw your weapon.... Your first move is to take cover.

Yes, I completely agree with your thoughts on this. You brought up a very important point.

 

[f8 crusader]

One point I forgot to mention, is that once you learn a technique that works for you from someone that knows what he is talking about, stick to it and practice, practice until you commit it to muscle memory, you will gain a ton of confidence.
Not everything that you learn in those school will apply to your needs, we attended several of the top schools and used part of what they taught, we compiled the best techniques from each one and developed a training curriculum to fit the needs of the Marine Corps, to keep marines going to high risk areas safe.
But what's important is not to allow your hard earned training to deteriorate by not practicing.
I do that every Sunday.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I have been extremely fortunate to have attended several advanced classes taught by several different instructors. Some formal, some not so formal.

I've learned much in the past 30 or so years. But I ain't no expert. Some instructors are decent and some not so. Attend as much training as you can and take what you believe works best for you and practice it.

Todays training is extrememly convoluted. It's hard to know who's method or which method is best. And there seem to be experts everywhere. Those that say "my way is best" or carry this caliber or you'll be sorry" are the one's you need to stay away from.

Only you know what works for you. Serious students of the use of deadly force never stop searching and learning. Above all, there is no substitute for quality training and even more practice. There are many good videos to buy. And there are many things you can do at home.


The commitment is yours and yours alone.

 

[BarbC]

There's a guy that does training out in Newport News. I took my FL CCW permit course from him at the Hampton gun show one year. I can't recall his name but maybe you can ask around or search.

 

[WR Moore]

Probably the most important training is to continually be aware of your surroundings and the people who inhabit them and act accordingly. Without that, the other stuff is useless. If you're really good at it, the other stuff isn't less important, but you lack the need to demonstrate the skill.

By the way, the 1500 round stuff is for "shooting schools". The good defensive schools don't need that much. IIRC, LFI-1 was/is a suggested 500 rounds. I didn't need that amount, some others did.

 

[f8 crusader]

Probably the most important training is to continually be aware of your surroundings and the people who inhabit them and act accordingly. Without that, the other stuff is useless. If you're really good at it, the other stuff isn't less important, but you lack the need to demonstrate the skill.

By the way, the 1500 round stuff is for "shooting schools". The good defensive schools don't need that much. IIRC, LFI-1 was/is a suggested 500 rounds. I didn't need that amount, some others did.

The 1.5 k of ammo was for the Ray Chapman advanced instructor course, you did a lot of shooting, you also got a lot of trigger time to practice after class, to graduate from this course, you had to shoot the old Bianchi Cup match course (it was held there every year) and shoot an expert rating, we shot this course with 1911's
Ray was the master and the best. he also trained Navy SEALS back then.

 

[surveyor47]

The damning part of it is that most CCW courses dont seem to address or give very little attention to the period of time between perception of threat outside of justifiable range (7 yards in my state) and the point at which that the threat is resolved by peacefully or by force. The course emphasis seems to be on a threat within 7 yards with a perpetrator bearing a visible weapon.

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?

 

[The Big D]

The damning part of it is that most CCW courses dont seem to address or give very little attention to the period of time between perception of threat outside of justifiable range (7 yards in my state) and the point at which that the threat is resolved by peacefully or by force. The course emphasis seems to be on a threat within 7 yards with a perpetrator bearing a visible weapon.

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?

Is that an actual statute in your state? What state? Have never hear of a "justifiable range" anywhere; certainly not one quantified.

Similarly, have never heard of anyone being charged with warning away one who threatens death/serious bodily harm.

Motre info, please. Statute(s) citation would be useful.

Be safe.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The damning part of it is that most CCW courses dont seem to address or give very little attention to the period of time between perception of threat outside of justifiable range (7 yards in my state) and the point at which that the threat is resolved by peacefully or by force. The course emphasis seems to be on a threat within 7 yards with a perpetrator bearing a visible weapon.

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?

Awarness and mindset will most often prevent these type of "sneak attacks".

When people I don't know get that close to me I don't take my eyes off them. I don't care if they like it or not. I also instinctively know where cover is and how to reach it quickly.

The one thing that is not taught or practiced enough is the ability to fend off an attack with your off hand, drawing and then firing with the other hand at close range.

To me, that is one of the important things I concentrate on at the range because it is most likely what will happen.

To practice entirely with two hands at 7, 10, 15 yards, etc.... Is like wishing upon a star.

It isn't realistic.

 

[Big Cholla]

Surveyor: Your situation has been hashed over in many advanced tactical classes that I have either attended or was giving. The best solution IMHO that was advanced is to: IF your situational awareness tells you that someone in your vicinity MIGHT be a threat; move to the best tactical position available to you at that time and place; move any others with you to the best defensive position for them; unobtrusively draw your handgun and conceal it behind your hip; watch the potential threat person very closely; have your other people watching for other potential threat people while keeping you informed of same; when the potential threat person is within 20 to 25 ft. from you verbally order him to STOP and not to come any nearer; IF that person stops, warn them to leave; IF that person does not stop, bring your handgun to your preferred two handed hold at a 'ready' position; watch that person's hands very closely; warn that person again to STOP; If complied with tell that person to leave NOW; any display of any weapon whatsoever, shoot. Now be the first to call the local Police. If the threat person leaves before seeing your handgun, just unobtrusively re-holster ........... Big Cholla

 

[The Big D]

Awarness and mindset will most often prevent these type of "sneak attacks".

When people I don't know get that close to me I don't take my eyes off them. ...

...To me, that is one of the important things I concentrate on at the range because it is most likely what will happen.

To practice entirely with two hands at 7, 10, 15 yards, etc.... Is like wishing upon a star. (emphasis added)

It isn't realistic.

Good point. This was from my recent post regarding my training/quals last month.

Day course was 5 strong hand, 5 weak hand; 3 yard line.
5 strong supported, 5 weak supported; 7 yards.
5 kneeling, strong supported; 15 yards.
5 standing, strong supported; 25 yards.

"Night" was via wearing welders goggles. Believe me, they work.
5 strong hand, 5 weak hand, 2 weak hand; 3 yards.
2 strong hand, 5 strong supported, 5 weak supported; 7 yards.
3 kneeling, strong supported, 3 standing, strong supported; 15 yards


And, don't think the bad guy(s) will be merely standing around awaiting your decision re: "what to do."

Be safe.

 

[OKFC05]

Expecting a state-mandated CHL course to teach defense pistol tactics is absurd. At best, the firing is a safety check, and the instructor may throw in some rudiments.

On the other hand the NRA defense courses are specifically directed toward starting with the rudiments and advancing to drawing from a holster, moving, using cover, etc. The courses are not all that expensive and are supposed to stick to the nationally-approved curriculum.
After doing these, THEN people are ready to go to the "experts" course, where you shoot hundereds of rounds and get put through the grinder.
People who go to the advanced courses before they learn any of the basics come back very impressed with what they SAW, but usually can't do any of it. Money wasted, IMHO.

My solution has been to combine the state CHL course with the first NRA defense course, for a discount package deal. I recommend they also take the scond NRA defense course, but most don't. I also recommend they start attending IDPA matches to practice their gun handling, but again most don't.

At least when they leave with their CHL state certificate and the certificate for the first NRA defense course, they are better off than had they only shot the state safety check.

 

[surveyor47]

Is that an actual statute in your state? What state? Have never hear of a "justifiable range" anywhere; certainly not one quantified.

Similarly, have never heard of anyone being charged with warning away one who threatens death/serious bodily harm.

Motre info, please. Statute(s) citation would be useful.

Be safe.

In the state of Louisiana, you must be within 7 yards (21 feet) for a shooting to be considered justified- according to every instructor I have discussed this with.

If the person sees you place your hand on your gun or if you unholster it and it becomes visible, you are threatening the person with a gun- according to every instructor I have discussed this with.

The way it is described by these instructors, the assailant walks up to you and you do not draw until he displays a weapon. It comes off like a point blank OK Corral with you yelling at the guy till he is right next to you, where you have very few options.

I have been through the situation described first hand. My solution has been to yell, "Halt! Come no closer! You have no business with me! Leave me alone!" The guy keeps coming, looking me straight in the eye. I move behind my car and he continues coming until I place my hand on the concealed weapon, at which point he takes a hard left turn and keeps on going. The problem is that at no point do these guys let you know that they have a weapon until they use it on you. You simply dont know anything other than you are being approached in a vacant parking lot by an agressive looking young male you have never seen before at midnight, looking you straight in the eye, smoking what appears to be a crack pipe. My solution has been that both he and I go home safe if at all possible.

One local guy followed the rules as specified by instructors. The perp got in too close, hit the man in the head with a gun, at which point the victim pulled his gun and shot the perp 5 times in the heart. Yeah, he was justified in Court, but I still say that if he warned the guy off at a reasonable distance, there probably would not have been a shooting. The closer the perp, the fewer your options. I dont want them that close. I want them to keep their distance and go on about their business.

 

[chp]

Regarding training, I attended a eight hour Suarez course on point shooting that cost $100 and it was worth every penny. Shooting on a range that permits shooting and moving is not only good practice, but lots of fun too!

+1. Good stuff.

 

[surveyor47]

The flip side of the coin is that:
1. Bothyou and he are in a public place and he has the right to be wherever he wants.
2. He might not understand you warnings.
3. He might be mad at you for yelling at him and want to beat the daylights out of you for telling him where not to go.
4.He might not be armed.
5. He might be bumming at match.

All you have is your perception that the guy is a threat and he has no business with you.

The guy who continues walking toward me despite warnings, use of obsticles, retreat, hand on weapon, whatever is available, forcing the situation on you is the guy who REALLY SCARES ME. This situation scares me because if you shoot, you do so with incomplete knowledge; if you dont, you could end up dead like so many who are shot in the head at close range.

That is why Im looking for an advanced CCW course that will resolve questions like this.

 

[ArmyCop]

I wear the eye's and ears when I shoot but I have shot without the ears in Iraq and WOW - that sucker is LOUD.

I've also fired my handgun at home, outside range once to see how loud it is and it's pretty loud.

I have heard that in a real shooting situation that it's been said sometimes - maybe because the Adrenalin is pumping - it doesn't sound so loud.