Recoil of M&P 40C

[VMaxSplat]

Tom,
I understand the relationship between mass and inertia, so when you are doing this test, maybe you could try the compact with a full mag and the full size with just one in the pipe and an empty magazine.

If the slide and barrel difference matter that much (your testing will show us) then someone shooting a compact could add weight to the gun (weapon light or just clamp a weight on the rail) while at the range to reduce the felt recoil.

Could be a million dollar idea.... The Lower Recoil-inator!

One factor with compacts (a big one) is that the short grip affects recoil control. I believe the M&P compacts have a floor plate extension to get a full shooting grip. That should help. Of course it also makes the grip length closer to the full size gun which sort of defeats the purpose.

A few years ago I went thru all of this with a Kahr K9 and K40. The K40 murdered my shot splits for a given level of combat accuracy compared to the 9mm. As for the M&P, I've only owned the full size 9 and 40. Maybe the compact M&Ps defy the laws of physics.

 

[Lost Lake]

I understand that Vmax, but the recoil numbers were being quoted from some type of machine or something, which shouldn't take into account the grip size (if it does anyone can shoot holes in all the numbers produced based on the variation in hand sizes of shooters).

 

[Tom Goodrick]

You ought to look at Genitron.com. It covers most guns in use today. For recoil it uses a momentum formula that is not too complicated. (We can use it in spread sheets.) I certainly know it is not perfect. Our response is very subjective even while shooting. I went to the range today and shot the 40C along side and alternating with my 40FS. At first I was relieved to see that "This isn't so bad. I can handle this!" Then I noticed there weren't as many holes appearing on the paper.

I had no choice in the ammo. I wanted Fed 180 ball and the store said I could only use Blazer 165 gr FMJ (flat nose) on the rental gun. I thought I could buy and use more expensive ammo in their gun if I wanted too. So it goes. (I was offered Fed Pers Defense JHP at over $1 per round but for use only in my personal gun.) I shot the Blazer ammo from both guns.

I recently fired 50 9mm shots from a Taurus Slim and got 42% on the 8x10 target paper. I thought that was terrible. Today of the 30 shots with the M&P 40C, I got 47% on the target paper. Of the 20 shots with my 40FS all hit the paper and only 3 were outside the 1.5 inch scoring ring at 30 ft. (30ft is a common distance used on this range.) Today I fired 10 with the FS, 20 with the C, 10 with the FS and 10 with the C.

On my first set with the C, I thought its recoil was not too bad. Indeed for all 30 shots with the C, I had no discomfort. I was using my standard 2-handed grip with the left hand under the right hand, thumbs together. In some cases I tried squeezing the left hand hard to reduce the response. But it did not help. Most shots went left and low. I think that is mainly the gun response as my hands held on.

I also noticed many of the holes from the 40C were elongated indicating the bullet was starting to tumble. The holes for the 40 FS were all round in this stiff paper.

The targets had no marking to show intended use. They had a black circle 7.5 in diam with a red dot in the center, 1.5 in. dia. and rings 1 in. apart marking 7,8,9 point areas. My score for the first set of 10 FS shots was 76 and for the second set was 86.

I like the 40 FS for home defense and will continue to practice it. For CCW I will look at more 9mm guns. In 40 cal I was going to try an XD Compact and a Glock 27. Maybe I will. But it will be a while before I buy a CCW gun so I will keep my options open. Range cost does not change when I own the gun. (But I have more freedom to choose the ammo.)

 

[VMaxSplat]

Tom, glad you got a chance to try some different guns out today. Sounds like fun!


For the sake of clarity (for someone that may be reading this thread and is just starting out), all of the common defensive calibers are pretty much ***** cats as far a painful recoil is concerned. Several of the commenters here have alluded to the fact that the 40c isn't painful. The point isn't one of painful recoil, but an issue of muzzle flip and its affect on fast, combat accurate shooting. The 40 has a snappy recoil impulse that, IMHO, makes it more suitable for duty size guns than subcompacts. Big magnum revolvers (like the 500S&W)...now there is some pain involved there.

For the record, I'm not a huge fan of the 9mm for duty guns because I was taught years ago that "defensive rounds should always start with a 4". I do think it is the best choice for small carry guns.

 

[T-BoneFL]

Tom - nice post. very informative.

However, you committed a cardinal sin: you compared the accuracy of a sub with a full sized gun

I've shot many guns that were either rentals or belonged to friends. I am super freaking accurate at the range with every full size I've shot. With subs (be it 9mm, .40, or .45), however, it's a different. I can place all shots within the 8" diameter circle at 40 feet... but subs are not as tightly grouped.

I think with practice, anyone can shoot a compact 40 accurately.

-T

 

[Rangel]

You ought to look at Genitron.com. It covers most guns in use today. For recoil it uses a momentum formula that is not too complicated.QUOTE]

Excellent site!

 

[Tom Goodrick]

Sitting here all relaxed, I agree: "Yes, I should be able to learn to shoot a small 40." But I would qualify that. I could not shoot it as well as a full size gun. On a man target I could learn to get a central shot where it would at least hurt the opponent. More trials will tell what I like the best. I might even revisit the Slim in 9mm. I like it for CCW.

 

[Lost Lake]

That website is good for comparing the basics of handguns, such as length, width and barrel length. That's about it. When you look at the 'defensive ratings' of guns, it's nothing more than a spreadsheet calculation based on length, weight, mag capacity, velocity of round etc. They do not take into account the sights, safeties, dual slide release or not, etc.

So comparing the recoil generated by one gun to another is done by weight and bullet energy. Obviously firing a less powerful round will reduce recoil. Changing the grip angle affects perceived recoil, even muzzle blast will affect perceived recoil.

I pointed out before that I feel no difference between a .40FS and a 9mm compact. I think there are a lot more variables to consider. Hand size and strength would be a big one.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I won't even reload for the .40SW unless the bullet weight is at least 170 - 175 grains. I cast my own 175's and I find them very mild to shoot. I have bought 155 and 165 grain bullet factory ammo and even the cheap aluminum case Blazer is snappy as heck. You just don't get something for nothing. If you want added velocity then you get added recoil. I stick with 158 grain bullets in .357 magnum for the same reason that I avoid 125 grain or lighter. Sure, the 125's are real highly rated, but they also are the known recoil monsters that are known for wearing out guns and shooters arms. I was gifted with some 155 grain plated bullets and I almost wanted to regift them. That's how not excited I am about light for caliber bullets in the .40SW.

 

[M29since14]

I have bought 155 and 165 grain bullet factory ammo and even the cheap aluminum case Blazer is snappy as heck...

I agree. Some 165-gr .40SW loads are just plain mean, and especially so in a compact gun. I use 180-gr Winchester Rangers in my 40c and 4040PD. I doubt there would be any problems with effectiveness, and neither gun is brutal to fire, like a G27 is for me.

I think you would find a 40c, with proper ammunition, to be quite controllable - not punishing at all. It is true you do give up two rounds if you decide to buy the .40 over the 9x19, but I am not sure that is much of a consideration for the ordinary citizen, "unless you plan to miss a lot." (I wish I could remember who coined that little quip. )

As to accuracy with the 40c, I have never noticed my gun shooting any worse than my full-sized M&P40. With the M&Ps, for me at least, it is all about the trigger. If one has a better trigger than the other, I shoot it better. I think my 40c has a little bit better trigger than my 40 F-S. Neither are great.

 

[obiwankabaldi]

check this recoil comparison out:


cartridge pistol wt. recoil energy recoil velocity
9x19 (115 at 1155) 2.0 3.8 11.1
.40 S&W (180 at 1027) 1.5 10.4 21.2
.45 ACP (230 at 916) 2.5 7.5 13.9
looking at it this way very easy to see why .40S&W may be hard to handle especially with double taps......

 

[obiwankabaldi]

sorry this did not post as clearly as it should
first column is cartridge, second is pistol weight,third is recoil energy. and lastly recoil velocity

 

[Lost Lake]

Where did you get that data obiwan? It seems the .40 pistol weight is nearly HALF that of a .45, where the truth is it's not.

Unless I'm reading that wrong....

My .40 is a dream to shoot... Nobody can tell me otherwise.

If you guys commenting don't have a .40 and compare it to your 9mm and .45 and you just read this stuff from websites or magazines... Well...

Like I said, my .40 shoots like a dream. Love it.

 

[T-BoneFL]

I agree. Some 165-gr .40SW loads are just plain mean, and especially so in a compact gun. I use 180-gr Winchester Rangers in my 40c and 4040PD. I doubt there would be any problems with effectiveness, and neither gun is brutal to fire, like a G27 is for me.

I think you would find a 40c, with proper ammunition, to be quite controllable - not punishing at all. It is true you do give up two rounds if you decide to buy the .40 over the 9x19, but I am not sure that is much of a consideration for the ordinary citizen, "unless you plan to miss a lot." (I wish I could remember who coined that little quip. )

As to accuracy with the 40c, I have never noticed my gun shooting any worse than my full-sized M&P40. With the M&Ps, for me at least, it is all about the trigger. If one has a better trigger than the other, I shoot it better. I think my 40c has a little bit better trigger than my 40 F-S. Neither are great.

Since we are on the topic of recoil, what is a recommended defense round to use that is not to "whippy?" I never shot the 40c, but I shot a FS M&P 40. And the Glock 27 (40 cal) had quite a bit of muzzle whip when I rented one at the range.

Thanks...
-T

 

[VMaxSplat]

Since we are on the topic of recoil, what is a recommended defense round to use that is not to "whippy?" I never shot the 40c, but I shot a FS M&P 40. And the Glock 27 (40 cal) had quite a bit of muzzle whip when I rented one at the range.

Thanks...
-T

The Winchester bonded 180 JHP loads seem to work well in my 40FS. Federal Champion 180 FMJ is a decent practice load ($28/100 at Walley World) for folks that don't reload.

 

[M29since14]

I particularly like the Winchester 180-gr Ranger JHPs because they are not especially snappy in the recoil department. I would think any 180-gr. load running below 1000 FPS would be similar, but the Winchester load is the one I have used the most.

I don't find either of the compact guns I mentioned tough to control with the Winchester Rangers. The G27 is a bear for me with almost anything.

 

[DAdams]

I have a .40c and added a couple full size magazines with XGrips. Hence can range shoot or carry with FS or Compact grips.
I also have a Storm Lake barrel in 9mm which drops in.
I have FS and compact 9mm magazines, the full size I run in my 9Pro.
I don't compete but there is a slight target acquisition time difference between the 147gr 9mm and 180 gr Federal HST in .40.
I also shoot a 4 inch .40 Walther P99AS similar characteristics to the .40 FS S&W.

If I could do only one caliber, I would do the .40c and become as proficient as possible.

 

[packinaglock]

Of course, what's the likelihood of you having both of those in a defensive situation? Get a CCW that you can confidently handle to put the shots on target.

Exactly!, chances are you will be one handed and not sure footed.

 

[flkinganuthin]

Since we are on the topic of recoil, what is a recommended defense round to use that is not to "whippy?" I never shot the 40c, but I shot a FS M&P 40. And the Glock 27 (40 cal) had quite a bit of muzzle whip when I rented one at the range.

Thanks...
-T

basically anything 180 grain for the 40c.
Speer Gold Dots are what I keep for defence. It's made for compact models.
Usually you can find 180 fmj on sale. Ive never paid more than $30 for 100.. even Gander has stacks of it on sale. Guess it isnt that popular.
Put talon grips on it, and the recoil becomes a non issue.

 

[Rangel]

Shooting my 40c with Xgrips makes it (naturally) more manageble. Any time you add mass, here being in the grip by making it heavier and with more surface area to hold onto, this will likely happen. Having to reload less is a bonus. I still shoot using the standard sized magazines, so I feel comfortable. I have a small laser--tactical light mounted and this counters muzzle rise a bit.