bullmack
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At what year and/or model did the recurve trigger guard end?
recurve trigger guard question
- Thread starter bullmack
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rct269
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I guess I need to start by saying I don't know what a re-curve trigger guard is. If it's the same as the so-called Russian style trigger guard, then I still don't know the answer to your question, except to say it was available on order on the New Model Number 3's. I have one, that pictured on page 190 of Neal & Jinks (Revised Edition). It letters with the hook (checkered yet!). Given that the NM#3's were available into the 1900's, presumably the hook continued to be available right along with them. And just because that makes at least a little sense, doesn't make it right.
How'd I do?!
Ralph Tremaine
How'd I do?!
Ralph Tremaine
The "reverse curve" TG is found on the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Model .32 DA, the 1st and 2nd Model.38 DA (the 3rd and 4th Model .38 DA's still have the same thin backed TG but the reverse curve, if any, is not evident) and all version of the .44 DA. None of the New Departure Hammerless had the curve.
rct269
Member
Okay, so the answer to MY question is I didn't do worth a cuss!!
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph,
It's interesting that someone actually ordered a target model with the "hook" trigger guard extension. I've always understood that the reason the Russian Models had this hook was so they could carry the gun tucked into their sash and not have it slip down to the nether regions. (which could be quite uncomfortable when on horseback.
)
I also used to have one of the 32-44 Targets with the hook. It was really awkward to handle with the second finger on the hook.
(Maybe it is just me...
)
It's interesting that someone actually ordered a target model with the "hook" trigger guard extension. I've always understood that the reason the Russian Models had this hook was so they could carry the gun tucked into their sash and not have it slip down to the nether regions. (which could be quite uncomfortable when on horseback.
)I also used to have one of the 32-44 Targets with the hook. It was really awkward to handle with the second finger on the hook.
(Maybe it is just me...
)rct269
Member
No, it's not just you-----it's awkward----period!
The alternative leaves a bit to be desired too. The second finger is now in VERY close proximity to the back of the hook. It may be no problem with the 32 or 38, but the 44 just might give you a good rap on the knuckle-----which might be somewhat disconcerting to your concentration!
Maybe I'll just cut it off! Then again----maybe not.
RT
The alternative leaves a bit to be desired too. The second finger is now in VERY close proximity to the back of the hook. It may be no problem with the 32 or 38, but the 44 just might give you a good rap on the knuckle-----which might be somewhat disconcerting to your concentration!
Maybe I'll just cut it off! Then again----maybe not.
RT
I never lettered the 32-44 as I thought the hook had been added "after-market". Maybe I was wrong and passed on something rare....
jleiper
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Ralph,
I've always understood that the reason the Russian Models had this hook was so they could carry the gun tucked into their sash and not have it slip down to the nether regions. (which could be quite uncomfortable when on horseback.
I also used to have one of the 32-44 Targets with the hook. It was really awkward to handle with the second finger on the hook.
(Maybe it is just me...
The hook was developed by then Captain K. Ordinetz, the Russian Inspector at Smith and Wesson to help control the recoil of the large revolver. It had nothing to do with carrying the revolver hooked under a belt - they did have holsters!
Joe
I'm not sure the Cossacks did.....
Anyway, wouldn't have been simpler to just slip on a set of Houge Boot Grips? (Or even Uncle Mikes.)
jleiper
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I'm not sure the Cossacks did.....
Anyway, wouldn't have been simpler to just slip on a set of Houge Boot Grips? (Or even Uncle Mikes.)
The Cossacks absolutely had holsters. Hand guns prior to the adoption of the revolver were not common in the Russian Army. Officers and some horse mounted troops carried hand guns, but the average trooper carried a musket and an infantry hanger.
Picture of a Cossack holster from the period of the Crimean war
Patern 1849 Cavalry officer's holster
Russian holster and lanyard for a Second Model
Joe
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
As the proud owner and shooter of a 2nd Model Russian, I can tell you
1. It is very awkward to attempt to shoot the gun with a finger wrapped around the 'hook', and
2. The 'hook' does not rap my finger when the gun is gripped normally, with the entire hand wrapped around the grip, not grasping the hook.
This is a heavy gun. With traditional 44 Russian ammo loaded with Black Powder it really does not recoil very much at all. Far less than a Single Action Army with a full charge of powder in a 45 Colt.
Recoil for the 44 Russian round is very mild, I can only stuff about 20 grains of powder into the relatively small 44 Russian round, vs about 35 grains in a 45 Colt.
rct269
Member
Well Driftwood, on the one hand I'm very happy for you; and on the other hand we're talking about apples and oranges----which is probably not the best use of our time. I was talking about a NM#3. You're talking about a Russian. You've clearly stated you've fired the Russian. I have just as clearly identified my comments as speculation------not having fired a NM#3 in over 20 years----and never having fired this one with the hook.
See what I mean about apples and oranges?
Ralph Tremaine
See what I mean about apples and oranges?
Ralph Tremaine
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Hi:
This comment is from a "Non-Expert".
The trigger guard "Hook" ended with the advent of "Swing Out" cylinder revolvers. (1890s?)
The "Hook" on the Russian Models "MIGHT" have been for placing the trigger finger on while advancing at "Raised Pistols" on horse back.
My Father was a "Horse Soldier" (U.S. 15th Cavalry) and advancing in line at raised pistol or saber was a method of attacking.
This comment is from a "Non-Expert".
The trigger guard "Hook" ended with the advent of "Swing Out" cylinder revolvers. (1890s?)
The "Hook" on the Russian Models "MIGHT" have been for placing the trigger finger on while advancing at "Raised Pistols" on horse back.
My Father was a "Horse Soldier" (U.S. 15th Cavalry) and advancing in line at raised pistol or saber was a method of attacking.
OP
bullmack
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Driftwood Johnson
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Perhaps not as much apples and oranges as you think. I also have a New Model Number Three, chambered for 44 Russian. I have fired it many times with the same Black Powder ammo that I use in the Russian model. Even though the New Model Number Three is significantly lighter than the Russian, the recoil is still mild. Futhermore, I had a chance to handle a couple of New Model Number Threes just yesterday that had the hook on the trigger guard just like a Russian Model. One was a New Model Number Three from a Japanese contract. Knowing what I know about the recoil of a Black Powder 44 Russian in a New Model Number Three, and having handled a couple of New Model Number Threes with the 'hook' on them just yesterday, I am quite confident that they would not rap my finger. Not quite as good as actually having fired one with the hook, but awful darn close.
Here is a link to one of the New Model Threes with hook that I handled yesterday. I'll take another look on Saturday just to make sure I know what I am talking about.
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I once had a # 3 38-44 with the hook. It was a renickled dog but shot well with 38 Long cartridges.Never heard about the sash story before.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Well, I got a chance to check out that New Model #3 with the Russian style hook on the trigger guard again a week ago. No problem. Plenty of space between my middle finger and the hook. With a charge of 20 grains or so of Black Powder in a 44 Russian case, which is really all you can get into a modern solid head, 44 Russian, I am confident the hook would not whack my finger. No, I did not buy it, I was after something else that day.
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Regarding the sash thing, I really don't believe that. Bottom line is nobody really knows why the Russians insisted on the hook. The Czar had enough money that he could issue holsters with the guns. I think it is just that they wanted a European looking gun, and that is why they specified the hook.
This is a pretty well known photo. Yes, the guy has the trigger guard hooked into his belt. But he is not regular army, he is some chieftain's bodyguard. I think this is a case of use following form. The hook was there, this guy did not own a holster, so that's how he wore it. I have tried hooking my Russian over a belt like this. It is not very secure. I would not trust it through much range of motion, particularly not at full gallop on a horse. A holster is much more secure.
Well, I got a chance to check out that New Model #3 with the Russian style hook on the trigger guard again a week ago. No problem. Plenty of space between my middle finger and the hook. With a charge of 20 grains or so of Black Powder in a 44 Russian case, which is really all you can get into a modern solid head, 44 Russian, I am confident the hook would not whack my finger. No, I did not buy it, I was after something else that day.
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Regarding the sash thing, I really don't believe that. Bottom line is nobody really knows why the Russians insisted on the hook. The Czar had enough money that he could issue holsters with the guns. I think it is just that they wanted a European looking gun, and that is why they specified the hook.
This is a pretty well known photo. Yes, the guy has the trigger guard hooked into his belt. But he is not regular army, he is some chieftain's bodyguard. I think this is a case of use following form. The hook was there, this guy did not own a holster, so that's how he wore it. I have tried hooking my Russian over a belt like this. It is not very secure. I would not trust it through much range of motion, particularly not at full gallop on a horse. A holster is much more secure.
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