Refurbing used 3rd Generation

[ShrinkMD]

What do people do with used 3rd gen pistols to get them back into "like new" condition? Just recoil spring and magazine spring, or do people send them back to S&W for a full refurb with new springs in all the hard to get to places?

Also, any idea what a new barrel costs? And are they drop in parts, or must they be fitted? Can you keep your old and have the new as a spare?

The 3rd gen pistols are worth passing down to the next generation, and I'm curious what people think is necessary (and optimal) to do so.

Thanks

 

[ShrinkMD]

What do people do with used 3rd gen pistols to get them back into "like new" condition? Just recoil spring and magazine spring, or do people send them back to S&W for a full refurb with new springs in all the hard to get to places?

Also, any idea what a new barrel costs? And are they drop in parts, or must they be fitted? Can you keep your old and have the new as a spare?

The 3rd gen pistols are worth passing down to the next generation, and I'm curious what people think is necessary (and optimal) to do so.

Thanks

 

[burntmypiston]

Man, good question. And yes, they are worth passing down. I'd like to see what the responses are to your question. LOVE my 3rd generation guns. They're simply the best pistols I've ever owned, regardless of price.

 

[handgunner356]

If the gun has been properly maintained and the recoil spring replaced every so often, it should be good for 50,000+ rounds. Most barrels are good for 100,000+ rounds if hot loads are not used. When I get a used 3rd gen gun with a unknown history I do a complete teardown and usually replace all the springs just to be safe, a whole spring kit is only around $25.

 

[ShrinkMD]

I have the AGI video on how to do a complete detail strip, but it seems a little intimidating. I would hate to have to send a box of parts off to S&W (I'm sure it has happened before, though)

For a police trade in which has little holster wear and the insides look good, no obvious wear on the rails, etc, one could still assume there are 50k or more left in an all steel gun.

I will have to rewatch that video...

 

[brianc]

I have restored A lot of these. It is not wear as much as being dirty inside. The only parts I have seen broken in steel frame are trigger springs. I have seen the wrong recoil spring in a lot of pistols, so that should be checked.

 

[ShrinkMD]

I rewatched the video. It looks like most of the springs would be easy to change, but I'm a little concerned about a few of them.

For example, the extractor spring, since replacing the pin requires an extra tap of the punch to seat the pin so it doesn't come back out. And removing the rear sight to get to the rear sight body spring seems complicated (vise, rezeroing sites, etc)

It looks like the least intrusive approach would be to change out recoil spring, firing pin spring, hammer spring, and maybe leave the rest unless they are specific problems. On the AGI video he said that the slide stop and trigger spring can be tough to get the pins out, and on the extractor tough to get out and problematic to get back in.

Also, is it bad to detail strip a pistol too often if it doesn't need it?

 

[Jhp147]

Don't worry about the extractor spring. If it works and you aren't replacing the extractor, it is not to be taken out as part of routine maintenance...per the armorer's class instructor and my notes.

It looks like the least intrusive approach would be to change out recoil spring, firing pin spring, hammer spring, and maybe leave the rest unless they are specific problems.

I'm only an inexperienced armorer on these guns, but that is what I would do unless there was a specific problem. I would replace all magazine springs, I think those are more likely to cause problems than any you are naming so far. Smith says once every 5K rounds or 5 years on them. Replacing the firing pin spring is good because it give you a chance to clean the the tunnel it operates in-which is likely to be filthy and can cause light hits. Barrel-some fitting may be required, but I wouldn't replace it unless I knew something was wrong with it. I personally don't think it's a good idea to detail strip the pistol more often than it needs. I think the manual says once a year (but I'd have to check and make sure) but why risk buggering up hole and losing parts and pins if you don't have to and can clean it without doing so?
One thing you didn't mention...have an armorer/S&W inspect the sear release lever for wear and replace if needed.

 

[ShrinkMD]

Thanks for the info. The 5906tsw I purchased looks really clean on the outside, and from what I can see during the field strip/clean it looks almost new (thanks brainc!)

Do you have typed copies of your notes from armorer's class? I know AGI is usually pretty good, but sometimes they show you too much, if you know what I mean. I'm really trying to strike a balance between replacing things which are easily done with little to no risk of buggering things up.

It looks like recoil, magazine, firing pin, and maybe mainspring will be plenty, eh?

I usually clean with mpro7 and then spray CLP everywhere, then let it dry out. I haven't heard of this combination causing gunk buildup in the firing pin channel like older cleaners and lubes, but I guess it would be good to really clean out the firing pin channel just in case.

Hey, if I was able to get my SKS bolt apart without breaking anything, this should be a piece of cake, right?

 

[Denver Dick]

Okay, ShrinkMD, here is my approach, FWIW. When I purchase a S&W 3rd generation pistol, I take it home, disassemble, clean, lube and reassemble it. Then I change the recoil spring and magazine springs. If the magazine followers appear beaten up, I change those, too. That's it. Then I take it to the range and test it out with 75 or 100 rounds.

If I get some firing pin smearing on the primer while shooting it, I change the firing pin spring when I get back home. Firing pin smearing ususally indicates the firing pin is not fully retracting before the barrel begins to move down out of battery under recoil. That may indicate a weak recoil spring or a weak firing pin spring (or combination thereof). But, since I already replaced the recoil spring, that pretty much leaves the firing pin spring as the culprit.

I also pay attention to how the spent cases are being ejected. If they come out like a rocket, I might consider an extra power recoil spring. If they fly out about 6 to 8 feet over, that seems about right to me. Others may differ . . . to each his own.

Good luck and have fun,

 

[Jhp147]

I usually clean with mpro7 and then spray CLP everywhere, then let it dry out. I haven't heard of this combination causing gunk buildup in the firing pin channel like older cleaners and lubes, but I guess it would be good to really clean out the firing pin channel just in case.

Anything that gets down in the FP hole mixes with carbon and whatever else is spit into it when it fires, so putting CLP "everywhere" may not be exactly the best idea. If by everywhere you mean, "where metal moves against metal except on the firing pin and spring/tunnel," I'd go with that. I've found lots of brass shavings in the FP tunnels. In a recent inspection, I found the FP spring in a 5906 wrapped along it's entire length with what looked like oil soaked dryer lint. I have NO idea how that happened, or how the gun was still working...but it was. Standard advice with any semi-auto is to avoid scrubbing the breech face with a brush while the slide is in the pointing up position, as anything-CLP or MPro-you clean with drains down into the FP tunnel and is trapped there unless you have the FP and related items out. Mix the liquid with the ejecta from firing, and you get gunk (official term, I'm sure) that needs to be cleaned out.
As to the the sear release lever, it may not be any sort of problem that you need to worry about, it was just the only other thing I can think of about that I've seen need attention, but the gun will still fire and cycle even if it's worn.
Mag followers as noted above-good idea. I haven't seen any problems with the police guns I've seen. BUT...easy to check and cheap insurance, easy to replace if you want to. These guns seem to keep on shooting, so I wouldn't think an overhaul beyond what you have described is necessary if it functions. If you are really worried, call S&W and see if they have some sort of reconditioning package.

 

[ShrinkMD]

Thanks for all the great advice. Compared to other guns I've seen and shot, I really think that the 3rd gen all steel smiths are superior to the black plastic and aluminum pistols out there. I know that Sig makes all steel ones, but for $1000 bucks new I can get 2 police trades and have plenty left over for magazines, new springs, ammo, etc. Plus, a little wear and tear is already built in.

I think if I bought that P226 Stainless elite I'd be afraid to shoot it!

I thought that with mpro7 because it completely degreases surfaces that you need to add oil to prevent corrosion, even on firing pins and other places you usually would keep dry. I will try the upside down trick.

But according to the AGI video I think I won't have any problem getting the firing pin out to clean, and I'm ok with doing that every now and then...

 

[bwh]

The AGI video on the S&W 3rd Generation pistols is actually pretty good. I learned quite a bit from it.

Disassembly and reassembly of the 3d Generation pistols is not really that hard. First I got good at disassembling/reassembling the slides because I needed to replace a number of sights (my sight pusher won't work if the slide mounted safety is still in place). Then I moved on to the frame. Guess what - the frame is actually easier to work on than the slide!

By far the hardest task in working on any 3rd Generation pistol is installing/removing the sights. A good sight tool is absolutely essential. Many of the Novak-style rear sights will come out with good whack or two with a hammer and punch (hint - use a delrin punch available from Brownells), but the front sights need to be pressed out with a sight tool.

 

[animalmother]

Lots of good info in this thread.

 

[ShrinkMD]

Reviving the thread for a little more discussion on magazines.

Now that everyone is going wild post-election, is stocking up on used LE magazines a good idea? Do the feed lips ever really get bent or ruined, or in most people's experience is a new Wolff 5 or 10% spring and maybe a new follower all you need to keep on rocking?

 

[dennis40x]

This is a slightly modified/refurbished 4506. The trigger guard was re-contoured from the concave configuration. The original rear sight was replaced with the later Novak sight which required machining of the slide. Bead blasted the slide and receiver for a more subdued color tone.

 

[wproct]

Originally posted by dennis40x:

This is a slightly modified/refurbished 4506. The trigger guard was re-contoured from the concave configuration. The original rear sight was replaced with the later Novak sight which required machining of the slide. Bead blasted the slide and receiver for a more subdued color tone.

Very Nice! I particularly like the re-contured trigger guard.

 

[norfdet]

Aluminum framed guns may prove to be more difficult to work with if they have been shot a lot. My department used to issue the 6906 and before we replaced then with the 5946, I saw a lot of frames that had lost their tolerance to keep everything together adequately, I also saw a lot of cracked frames around the frame rails. However keep in mind these were LE guns and some had been reissued over and over.

Once the springs were replaced the gun was essentially back to new. My 1076 was the same way, it was armorer stripped, cleaned and inspected and everything proved to be fine.

One of the big reasons my department swayed away from S&W was the time it took to fix steel guns. When the guns are factory new all the parts are OEM. Several years later when a lever breaks you have to take an OEM part and hand "wear" it to fit with other metal parts that have all worn together. This is a very time consuming job when you are dealing with 800 guns and less than a handful of armorers (with each gun being checked yearly during annual qualifications).

With fantastic plastic (which we have now) the parts break less often and are much easier to replace, essentially a drop in and go.

On the other hand, I had a 659 that I gave to a local PD armorer to check. He advised when he removed the slide and frame internals that I had several springs that had seprated from corrosion (working close to the water in an east coast city near the ocean) but until the gun was taken apart you would have never known it. In other words, the gun functioned fine and the spring issue was not apparent until they were removed.

 

[Denver Dick]

I have 18 S&W 3rd generation pistols now and I'm waiting to pick up two more over the next couple of weeks. I've completely disassembled, cleaned, inspected, replaced parts where necessary, lubed and reassembled each and every one of them. All of them received a new recoil spring, most got a new grip, some got a new mainspring and a few others got a new firing pin spring.

I've only had to replace one side plate, one rear sight set screw, one or two small ejector springs, a couple of grip pins, two trigger pins, and a couple of slide stop plunger springs, one was weak and the other was the wrong spring (yes the factory does install the wrong spring on occasion).

The most challenging replacements were three trigger play springs (1990 4516-1, 1990 4566, and a 1992 3913). My brother cracked and broke the trigger play springs in the two 45's that he previously owned. His method of zealous cleaning was a bit much for them.

The 3913 was carried by an LAPD sergeant for a few years and was also subjected to some vigorous cleaning.

Speaking of my brother (whom I love very much), the side plate on my 4566 was replaced because he had severely bent its fingers that grip the groove of the sear pin. I think it happened when he was exchanging the straight grip for a curved one. It happens, no big deal.

So, as you can see, except for the recoil spring, maybe the firing pin spring and mainspring, there's not much to do. A new grip is mostly a personal choice based on appearance. I find a new grip will usually make a 95-96% 3rd generation pistol look like a 99% firearm, and they're only about $15 each with the C&R license discount from Brownell's.

A word about recoil spring guides. S&W makes a solid stainless steel recoil spring guide for the 4006, they call it a CHP recoil spring guide. It also fits the 5903, 5906, etc. I have use one of those wherever I can, but that was a personal choice and not "required." The same goes for the solid stainless steel recoil spring guide they make that fits the 4566, 4576, 1066, 1076, etc. Those, too, were my personal choice and not required.

I addressed magazine springs and extractor springs in my previous post in this thread.

FWIW and HTH

 

[Jhp147]

Now that everyone is going wild post-election, is stocking up on used LE magazines a good idea? Do the feed lips ever really get bent or ruined, or in most people's experience is a new Wolff 5 or 10% spring and maybe a new follower all you need to keep on rocking?

I guess...if you can find them. I don't think you can have too many mags. I ran my 5900 mags pretty hard for a few years, but they didn't get dropped on concrete, so no problems with the lips. I have used Wolff plus 5 percent (I think it was 5) springs on my single stack mags. I can't say that they work better, but they seem to hold their "push" a bit better-again, not that it matters. I have not used anything but factory springs in the double stack guns.