Reichsrevolver

[Cyrano]

The Odessa gun show last weekend was good to me. I got this Modell 1879 Reichsrevolver and holster. It was made by Gebr. Mauser, and they didn't make very many of them. It's really pretty and the bore is as good as the outside. The holster, made by H. Becker & Do, is a little ratty. I plan to shoot the revolver with black powder rounds. Three questions:
1. The butt is stamped with a unit mark: B.4.A.4.12. Anyone know what unit this is?
2. Is this the correct holster for a Modell 79?
3. Is the cutout on the flap at the rear of the holster for the butt of the pistol original, or did somebody modify it?

 

[cmort666]

Those are neat guns, although I prefer the shorter barreled M1883.

Harkening back to the discussion of Spanish S&W clones and Chinese FN M1900 clones, there are quite a few variations and copies of the M1883, including single-action, double-action and even double trigger versions.

There used to be a guy who always came to the Ohio Gun Collector's Association Show in Cleveland, who usually had Reichsrevolvers, French Ordinnance(sp?) revolvers, Italian Bodeos and the like.

 

[2152hq]

The holster looks like a correct Reichsrevolver Holster M1883/Modification of 1885.
The flap cut out is right. The stitching of the flap should go all the way accross the top edge.

They made these right up to WW1.

I think the marking is for:
Bavarian 4th Field Artillery, 4th Company(?), weapon #12

I might have that partially wrong (the 4thCompany part), but I'm reasonably sure on the rest of it.
The Bavarian units were generally the only one of the German States to mark their weapons (B for Bayerisches).
Saxony, Prussia, and Wurttemberg did not.

Bavaria had a deep mistrust of the central gov't in Berlin.
They are also the only units to refuse to return their personally purchased Commercial 1908 Luger pistols for refitting of the hold-open (Erfurt).
The Army adopted P08 had the holdopen in it, the slightly earlier commercial purchased pistols did not.

A free factory upgrade,,and they wouldn't go for it...

 

[C. Brown]

The unit mark interpretation is correct except that in the case of artillery units what would be a company number for infantry units = a battery number, so this was the 12th revolver in the 4th battery.
The holsters frequently have unit designations and/or Corps quartermaster designations ink-stamped on the interior of the flap. Occasionally these markings can be found stamped into the leather.
The holster shown is the M1887 and the cutout for the butt is correct. Holsters for mounted orderlies were black and for the Jäger zu Pferde regiments light brown; all others dark brown. I have seen M87 holsters dated as late as 1914.
Bavarian contract M79s are identifiable by 1) unit stamps 2) presence of the Bavarian acceptance stamp GF, found on the left barrel flat and on the rear face of the cylinder.
The original finish on all M79s was brown. During World War I some were refinished in a dull blue.
Bavaria purchased 5003 M79s from Mauser.
By the standards of the day the M79 was primitive. Ejection of empty cases was accomplished with a separate brass rod carried attached to the underside of the cartridge box which was in turn attached to a bandolier. Initially a lanyard attached the pistol to the bandolier but this rig was dropped fairly early-on. The cylinder pin release lever is fragile; take care in manipulating it.
M79s soldiered right through World War I especially with rear echelon units or support units where Lugers were not required; some saw service in the postwar "German Civil War" 1919-1923.
.44 S&W Russian cases can be utilised in reloading and reloading data can be found in the usual sources.
If you became thoroughly enamored with these pieces the standard reference is Heinrich Harder, Der Reichsrevolver und seine Varianten, DWJ, Blaufelden, 2005; 454 pp. extensively illustrated; main text German with English language photo captions and summaries at the end of each chapter. This title is still in print and the usual price is 59 Euros exclusive of postage.

 

[cmort666]

If you became thoroughly enamored with these pieces the standard reference is Heinrich Harder, Der Reichsrevolver und seine Varianten, DWJ, Blaufelden, 2005; 454 pp. extensively illustrated; main text German with English language photo captions and summaries at the end of each chapter. This title is still in print and the usual price is 59 Euros exclusive of postage.

I saw a reference to this book when I was looking up double-action variants of the 1883.

I wish the Ohio Gun Collector's Show was still up here in Cleveland at least part of the time. Book dealers like Cunard and Rutgers Book Center were a fixture there. I got a lot of my Collector Grade books at that show. The guy who used to come to the Berea gun show wasn't there the last time I went, and I missed the last show.

I suppose I could always order a copy online, although I am REALLY loathe to spend sometimes upwards of $120 on a book, sight unseen, even for the Collector Grade books.

 

[Cyrano]

My pistol, as can be seen from the thumbnails is blue, so evidently it was refinished, although it shows no signs of buffing. The holster is unmarked except for the maker's name, and is dark brown, which seems to be correct for "everybody else". Glad to know the meaning of the 'GF' stamp which occurs on the barrel and cylinder of this revolver. The revolver actually was obsolete in 1873, six years before it was issued, when France came out with their revolver; sturdy, double action, and ejector mounted on the barrrel. Unfortunately the French Mle 73, 11mm round is pretty anemic.

I gotta get a copy of that book; I know there are many variations of the Reichsrevolvers, including civilian models and some double action. I sure wish I could read German.

 

[30-30remchester]

I discovered a model 1883 at a local gun show with a WWII capture certificate. I guess Germany was using about anything that went bang in the war years.

 

[skeezix]

I was there Saturday and I didn't see that. But I wasn't looking for old stuff, so I might have glanced at it and ignored it.

Did one of the "exhibitors" have it, or was it "walking around" looking for a buyer?

 

[C. Brown]

I discovered a model 1883 at a local gun show with a WWII capture certificate. I guess Germany was using about anything that went bang in the war years.

Bring-back papers don't necessarily mean "used." SOP by US forces on occupying a town was to put up notices demanding surrender of all firearms regardless of source; many of these then were taken as souvenirs by GIs before destruction - which was the usual eventual fate of weapons notv taken as souvenirs.. I don't know offhand when the manufacture of military 10,6mm revolver ammo ended but I think civilian manufacture ended in Germany in the 1930s. That said, when it came to the arming of the Volkssturm, just about anything was used: I have read an account of a Volkssturm soldier interviewed by the Americans after capture who said he was issued a "nineteenth century revolver with one round of ammunition." Reichsrevolver? Who can say...

 

[DeadAye]

Bring-back papers don't necessarily mean "used." SOP by US forces on occupying a town was to put up notices demanding surrender of all firearms regardless of source; many of these then were taken as souvenirs by GIs before destruction - which was the usual eventual fate of weapons notv taken as souvenirs.. I don't know offhand when the manufacture of military 10,6mm revolver ammo ended but I think civilian manufacture ended in Germany in the 1930s. That said, when it came to the arming of the Volkssturm, just about anything was used: I have read an account of a Volkssturm soldier interviewed by the Americans after capture who said he was issued a "nineteenth century revolver with one round of ammunition." Reichsrevolver? Who can say...

Did he have to keep it in his pocket?

 

[C. Brown]

Did he have to keep it in his pocket?

Not indicated in report. Other Volkssturmmänner reported carrying rifle ammunition in pockets. Pistols do not figure much in accounts of Volkssturm armament or published records I have seen so far. I do have a Breslau Volkssturm Soldbuch recording issue of what was probably a Mauser Hsc 7,65 pistol.

Apropos WW-2-era use, allegedly the Reichsfinanzverwaltung (think treasury/customs/borderguards) issued M79s to bank guards in the 1930s. The RFV customarily property-marked their weapons: RFV (number) but nobody has yet reported an M79 so-marked.
There is a totally unmarked light brown M79 holster unlike any of the Imperial era holsters which which appears to be of WW-2 era construction which may have been for these.

 

[cmort666]

I have read an account of a Volkssturm soldier interviewed by the Americans after capture who said he was issued a "nineteenth century revolver with one round of ammunition." Reichsrevolver? Who can say...

Could have been an S&W .44 Russian copy. Those were made in Germany.

Also the Germans used SO much foreign equipment that they type standardized most of it.

 

[2152hq]

The unit mark interpretation is correct except that in the case of artillery units what would be a company number for infantry units = a battery number, so this was the 12th revolver in the 4th battery.
.

Thanks for posting the correction and the additional info also,,very informative.

I knew I didn't have the correct term,,just didn't sound right.