Reinstate the draft?

[Dougaz]

It used to be that in Israel, every young man and woman was required to enter the armed forces for two years (I think)

Perhaps that's still a requirement but I wonder sometimes if the good ol' USA shouldn't do the exact same thing?

It makes me ask what the protesters would say when they have a rag nasty D.I. screaming at them for several weeks?

 

[DeathGrip]

The protesters maybe, The looters and vandals etc. are already too far gone down the felonious path.

 

[dockmurgw]

As long as college isnt an excuse, because college is where the little cretins become what they are. Draft potential college students, if anyone gets a pass its anyone entering the trades.

 

[Jessie]

My opinion is no. Don’t need them there. I’d rather my back be covered by people who want to be there.
Who knows what some of these cretins would do with a weapon or even a tank?!
No thanks

 

[ggibson511960]

National Service

Military or national service ought to mandatory for all able bodied citizens. Exemptions for essential employment are bogus. Selective Service used to exempt phone company employees. There's no reason all men and women couldn't do something, even those with criminal backgrounds could be put to work in community service. Having a big military reserve corps would be necessary as we don't need a large active duty standing army.

 

[Ματθιας]

Have you seen these kids? How many could pass a PFT, drug test, background check? The Army stopped the grenade requirement because these "softies" (ahem-cough-cough) can't throw it far enough for them to be out of the kill zone!

Then there's this from 2018:

Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training

The new program of instruction is the result of surveys taken from thousands of leaders who have observed a trend of new soldiers fresh out of training displaying a lack of obedience and poor work ethic as well as being careless with equipment, uniform and appearance, Maj. Gen. Malcolm Frost, commanding general of the U.S. Army Center of Initial Military Training, told defense reporters on Friday.

'A Sense of Entitlement'

"What leaders have observed in general is they believe that there is too much of a sense of entitlement, questioning of lawful orders, not listening to instruction, too much of a buddy mentality with NCOs and officers and a lot of tardiness being late to formation and duties," Frost said. "These are trends that they see as increasing that they think are part of the discipline aspect that is missing and that they would like to see in the trainees that become soldiers that come to them as their first unit of assignment."

Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training | Military.com

Sound familiar? And these are folks who VOLUNTEERED! Imaging attempting to train tens of thousands of these functionally illiterate, slackers who don't want to be there!

Besides that, where is the money going to come from as we, as a nation, are broke!

 

[UncleEd]

As long as college isnt an excuse, because college is where the little cretins become what they are. Draft potential college students, if anyone gets a pass its anyone entering the trades.

Yeah, future doctors, engineers, architects,
ministers/priests/rabbis, finance experts,
scientists, teachers, writers--screw all of them.
The military nor then nation won't need any
of them.

A screaming non-com is all the military or the
nation needs. After all, that non-com will be
able to provide any intelligence service needs,
any sophisticated weaponry, all the knowledge
it takes to make ships, planes, tanks and
missiles work.

I agree we need more qualified trades people
but not at the expense of delaying or punishing
education beyond high school levels. During
the draft the military was able to make good
use of those who also came from colleges.

 

[fordson]

While the Draft is a great social mixing tool (and real world educational experience) under our current economic climate, it’s unaffordable and unsustainable. Some 3% of the US population are in the military under our current “volunteers” force structure. Apparently, this is adequate to our needs. DoD determines force structure and strength requirements based on the Six year Defense/Five year defense plan (aka, SITUP & FITUP). These Defense Plans look six year/five in the future at threat levels and war game these threats. A large standing military is at odds with the current social setting of the country. Money spend on the military is thought to be better spent on social programs. Just look at the current “Defund the Police” effort to redistribute funds to other social programs in many parts of the country. There no stomach for it right now. Many of us here served in a Draft Military Force back in the 60s and 70s. It wasn’t a happy time then, I don’t know that I’d trust anyone not wanting to be there to do the job assignment.

 

[MRB1]

The draft turned a lot of potential useless felons into real humans, and changed their lives for the better. Not possible now, and our military doesn't deserve the chore of babysitting a bunch of crybabies. Now if juveniles commiting felonies were required to undergo a six week boot camp as part of their sentence, it might wake up a few. What we really need is much larger prisons, more of them, and not user-friendly. Jail / prison should be almost equal to a living hell.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Two years of national service - yes. Exchange two years of college or trade school for that.

Having everybody do their national service in the military - no. What a mess that would be.

 

[Old_Cop]

No, it's not 1960 anymore. We are way too far down the road of individualism and diversity.

 

[LVSteve]

Wow, has it really been three years since the last thread was started on this subject? Time flies. Then there was this epic from 2015.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/452075-i-think-we-need-draft.html

 

[moosedog]

Either a draft into the military or mandatory civic work certainly help improve appreciation of this country.

 

[dockmurgw]

Yeah, future doctors, engineers, architects,
ministers/priests/rabbis, finance experts,
scientists, teachers, writers--screw all of them.
The military nor then nation won't need any
of them.

A screaming non-com is all the military or the
nation needs. After all, that non-com will be
able to provide any intelligence service needs,
any sophisticated weaponry, all the knowledge
it takes to make ships, planes, tanks and
missiles work.

I agree we need more qualified trades people
but not at the expense of delaying or punishing
education beyond high school levels. During
the draft the military was able to make good
use of those who also came from colleges.

Your taking all of this waaayyyyy to serious. My comment is about as well thought out as the OP's. You took my comment serious, which means you completely missed the intent.

 

[Absalom]

While the Draft is a great social mixing tool (and real world educational experience) under our current economic climate, it’s unaffordable and unsustainable. Some 3% of the US population are in the military under our current “volunteers” force structure. Apparently, this is adequate to our needs.....

I agree with your point, but you actually understate the issue. The entire US military currently has a strength of about 1.4 million.

That’s not 3% of the population, but less than half a percent.

The age group 18 to 21 or so is about 12-14 million, so roughly ten times as large.

If a draft were to be meaningful at all in the way people here envision, whether to instill an ethos of responsibility or just to terrorize young people into behaving like old farts want them to behave, the US would have to find a way to draft, train, and keep busy the majority of each age cohort.

I doubt you could get the taxpayers to pony up the money to even run a really tough summer boot camp for those numbers that would be necessary, not to speak of 21st century training in military technology.

 

[6518John]

Wow, has it really been three years since the last thread was started on this subject? Time flies. Then there was this epic from 2015.

I think we need the draft

Steve—two banned, one on long term suspension and one doing life in prison!

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I served in the Draft Era Army 1967-1971, I was an RA, as were about 65-70% of the Army was then, the problem with the Draft was that it ensured the Army's ranks were filled with quality enlisted men who were in far too many cases BETTER than their superiors-more intelligent, better educated, more hard working, more honest-and more mature.
"What's the difference between the Army and the Boy Scouts ? The Boy Scouts have adult leaders !"
I knew a retired Signal Corps/ASA E-7, he said he arrived at a new duty in the 1970s, the First Sergeant looked at his name badge and said with a derisive snort and a sneer:
"Was your father First Sergeant So-and-So ? Ask him if he remembers me!"
His father wrote back:
"Yes I remember him-and he was a sorry PFC !"

 

[Oracle]

I have heard the services are experiencing difficulties recruiting people who can pass the drug test, can pass the entrance exam and can pass the physical. The people who pass those three tests advance to boot camp. Boot camp identifies people who struggle with the physical exercise and tries to get them physically fit. Boot camp also identifies people who simply can't or won't conform. I would sincerely hope boot camp would weed out these people instead of pushing along for someone else to deal with.

I went to the U. S. Coast Guard boot camp in Alameda, California in 1970 and I retired from the U. S. Coast Guard in 1991. I was fortunate enough to only see around two or three Coasties in 20 years that should of haven't progressed out of boot camp.

 

[m75rlg]

I went to the U. S. Coast Guard boot camp in Alameda, California in 1970 and I retired from the U. S. Coast Guard in 1991. I was fortunate enough to only see around two or three Coasties in 20 years that should of haven't progressed out of boot camp.

That is because the Coast Guard won't take just anybody! They require the highest test scores of any sevice, and a pretty stringent background check just to get the chance to make it to boot camp. And not everybody makes it through boot camp.

"Enjoyed" boot camp at Cape May in '71, then stayed there another year on the Provost Element. Saw a number wash out in those 13 tough weeks over that year! Some spending time in the brig before being sent home.

 

[Jon651]

I have an opinion on the question about reinstating the draft - but it doesn't really matter. Why not? Because I have no answer to the follow-up questions about the problems that will ensue if certain kids don't get some discipline, some training and a least a little sense of honor in their lives on one hand, and all of the issues it would create for the military (and perhaps the civic services as well) on the other.

Whether I want the draft reinstated is irrelevant - the military doesn't want it and they are the experts, so I will accede to their expertise.

 

[crazyphil]

I believe there should be compulsory service for everyone. A certain
percentage of eight balls will of course need to be weeded out. In my
own case, as an example, I don't believe I would have amounted to much
of anything without the discipline of the military. I amounted to little
enough with it.

 

[Marshwheeling]

If you want to use the draft and the military to transform useless felons into human beings, capable and worthy of respect and honor, first you must do the same at the top.

 

[fordson]

I agree with your point, but you actually understate the issue. The entire US military currently has a strength of about 1.4 million.

That’s not 3% of the population, but less than half a percent.

The age group 18 to 21 or so is about 12-14 million, so roughly ten times as large.

If a draft were to be meaningful at all in the way people here envision, whether to instill an ethos of responsibility or just to terrorize young people into behaving like old farts want them to behave, the US would have to find a way to draft, train, and keep busy the majority of each age cohort.

I doubt you could get the taxpayers to pony up the money to even run a really tough summer boot camp for those numbers that would be necessary, not to speak of 21st century training in military technology.

There are approximately 1.5M active duty members in the US military, with another 1.5M active reserves/NG for a total of around 3M. That’s a little less then 1% of the US population. I did over state the math by a bit, however, that does underscore my point: With so few in the military, our current culture, society and national mindset does not support a draft. Nor can we justify or afford a draft, regardless of how appealing the concept might be. The military doesn’t need nor support a draft. It’s unfortunate that so few carry the burden for so many. Some Troops, NG and even Reserves, are on multiple deployments. A young NG officer I know has returned from his 7th deployment to the war zone. I’ve read some troops are on their 13th, 14th and even 15th deployments. That’s just wrong. But a Draft in today’s USA won’t fly.
Personally, I’d like to witness some over privileged, self centered draftee have his “man bun” shaved off with a set of dull clippers, but that’s mean of me......

 

[Onomea]

I think I’ve posted this before, but...

While I am profoundly grateful that a draft was not in effect during the years my three sons would likely have been eligible for it, I think an advantage of maintaining a draft, even during peacetime, is that it would give our society in general, and our political and business elites in particular, pause before entering into wars.

I think knowing that your own children might die is a useful constraint, frankly.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers-Napoleon
There are no bad regiments, only bad officers-William Slim
A competent leader can get efficient service from poor troops, while on the contrary an incapable can demoralize the best of troops-John J. Pershing

 

[Turq]

"and our political and business elites in particular, pause before entering into wars."

It's a nice concept but unfortunately I have no confidence in my kids and the kids of our "political and business elite" being treated the same.

I debated whether to include a certain type of a foot ailment as an example of why I have no confidence in what you suggest.... but the mods work hard enough so I will just leave it at that.

 

[Onomea]

"and our political and business elites in particular, pause before entering into wars."

It's a nice concept but unfortunately I have no confidence in my kids and the kids of our "political and business elite" being treated the same.

I debated whether to include a certain type of a foot ailment as an example of why I have no confidence in what you suggest.... but the mods work hard enough so I will just leave it at that.

I thought of your point, too. I don’t disagree with you. It is profoundly unfair.

The draft lottery, which came into effect when I was an undergrad, was pretty fair though. At least far fairer than giving anyone in college a IIS deferment, as I, and many of my generation, initially had.

If we ever do reinstate a draft, great care must be taken to make it truly equitable.

 

[LVSteve]

Steve—two banned, one on long term suspension and one doing life in prison!

...and all three with different views. Watcha gonna do?

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

"A certain type of foot ailment "? They were pretty fussy in WWII. In 1943 champion weightlifter and bodybuilding champion Dan Lurie went for his pre-induction physical. He was labeled 4F-heart murmurs. I knew plenty of men who tried to enlist in the 1960s and failed their physicals, there was a recruit in my BCT company in 1967 who received a medical discharge.
Not too keen on this "national service" idea either, still believe in old fashioned volunteerism.
One of the harshest criticisms of the Army I ever heard was from a retired Colonel of Armor who told me:
"I saw training go from being the one thing everybody worried about to the one nobody worried about."
And the Official Report issued in 1971 which, in addressing the Army's very serious morale problems made the refreshingly candid admission that:
"Most jobs in the Army require little or no intelligence."

P

hi

 

[Absalom]

I agree that some kind of universal service would be highly desirable.

But talking about this in terms of military service is simply unrealistic, and not just for the reasons already discussed.

You guys all seem to forget that historically, Americans really hate the idea of a draft. There were just short ones in the late Civil War and WW I. And the Civil War efforts were violently resisted both North and South.

The long draft of 33 years from 1940 until 1973 was an absolute historical outlier. It was only made possible by the extraordinary double threat of first the Nazis/Japanese and then the Communists.

And even the latter threat wasn’t enough to maintain support for a continued draft. There is no doubt about a connection between the end of the draft and the war that ended at the same time.

You’d need another existential threat to this country to make a draft discussion palatable again.