Reloading for Model 1 1/2 first issue 32rf

[Pat Margroin]

Howdy all,
I got my hands on a first issue Model 1 1/2 and would like to reload some rounds for it. I've done a bit of poking around on this site and others, and generally speaking it seems like the two options are buying the parts from Dixie gun works or H&C. It looks like the H&C has a die set that comes with it too.

I've read in a few forums that the model 1 1/2 was "designed" for the 32 long but would work with 32 short (both rimfire). My "Cartridges of the World" says that the short was for the model 1 1/2 and the model 2, while the long was introduced for the model 2. While I'll tend to go by what the book says, anyone have an opinion regarding this, as I've read a lot of different opinions.

Also, I've read about people buying the dixie components, but have not seen how the rounds are actually assembled (i.e. die set) Is it advantageous to buy the set from H&C? (Their website has instructions on the process with their dies.) Also, along the lines of the first question, if I do buy the H&C, any recommendation on the dies for long or short? I'm leaning toward short.

And finally, the cartridges of the world says the short was originally a 80 grain bullet with 9 grains of blackpowder. I have some FFg that I was planning on using, but anyone have ideas regarding this as well? A few of the sites just said "fill case but leave room for ball...

Thanks in advance for your opinions,
Ken

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. My belief is that when the original Model 1 1/2 came out in 1865, the only ammunition available was likely 32 Long from the Civil War & the Model 2. I can see no reason why the factory would have produced long cylinders than to shoot the 32 RF Long?? I still shoot both my Model 1 1/2 and Model 2 revolvers with 1990s vintage Navy Arms ammo and both shoot 32 Long or Short without issue.

The real reason why the 32 Short was introduced may be lost to history, but knowing the history of S&W, they would not have wasted steel to build a long cylinder that was not needed. I believe it is a common misconception that the smaller 1 1/2 was made for 32 Shorts only, but that is not the case. There are ammo boxes out there that state they are for either 32 Long & Model 2 or 32 Short & Model 1 1/2, but I have never found the reason. If you think you will ever own a Model 2, get the 32 Long brass and use for both.

Lastly, I believe that the 32 brass for sale today is most likely all from the same manufacturer. I have seen a few from different sources, but they all have the same design. Look for the best price.

The 32 brass that I have inspected are made with a heavy wall and a slot in the rear for a 22 short case with bullet and powder pulled. No tools are needed, but FF will not work well in my opinion. First off, the space is reduced from original due to the thick walls. Original loadings were at least 3F if not 4F, since there was only about 10 grains total of powder in original casings. You will be lucky to get 6 grains of FF (by weight) in those cases, and might end up with a stuck bullet. Do some experimentation and if you have access to a chronograph, take some velocity readings until you get around 500 fps and should be good to go. Some people use 32 RN bullets designed for 32 S&W CF ammo. The original bullet was .316" and the 32 S&W is .312" and it is said that they will go into the new cases. Accuracy might suffer, but these are belly guns, so were never intended to shoot at a long distance anyway. Round ball will also work.

Be safe and have fun.

 

[H Richard]

I have a question regarding this. I have read of the reloading components for .22 RF, being able to put new priming compound in the 22RF case. Could this same priming compound be used in a .32 RF case with the appropriate powder and bullet? While I have several 1 1/2's, I have no intention to fire them. Just interested.

 

[glowe]

I have read lots about this, but it all seems to be speculation and not actual experimentation. The case would have to be clean and dry. You would need some way to spin the case to ensure the primer is driven into the rim, and in theroy the operation would be possible. As for obtaining the priming material, there is one experiment on YouTube where the primer was obtained from cap revolver strips and would shoot wax bullets. The cap gun powder did ignite the powder.

The 32 RF contained a heeled bullet like the 22 RF leaving extra room for powder, but pushing a ball down or setting a standard bullet will take up quite a bit of space. I do not know if you can come up with an original type bullet of not for an original case.

 

[deadin]

Other than lack of capacity in the H&C cases, they also require that you be careful about getting the alignment of the case in the cylinder so the firing pin will strike the "primer". (Plus they're fairly expensive...) I'm with Gary in that paying for a box or two of the Navy Arms stuff might be cheaper in the long run. (You really aren't going to shoot them that much.)

As for reloading spent rimfire cases, I knew an old guy that used to reload .56 Spencer RF. First he had to make a tool that would "spin" the dent out of the rim and scrape the residue out.
I don't know just what he used for a priming compound, but he decided it was just too volatile for handling and it didn't work about half the time. (I think he made it from "strike anywhere" match heads and and ground glass.....)
(He ended up machining a new center fire block for his carbine )

 

[Pat Margroin]

Thanks for the info... thanks for the info on the FFg I'll buy some FFFFg. The same haul that I got the 1 1/2 with came a winchester 1887, so that's why I have the FFg (easier to find loading info for that). Now that I've shot that a few times, I'm turning my attention to the 1 1/2. (Both had been sitting in grandparents' attic for decades.....)

Is there anywhere to buy the navy arms stuff? I hadn't seen it anywhere when I search from time to time. Although I do somewhat enjoy doing things like this, so I don't mind the cost and effort.

During my poking around the all knowing internet, I saw someone was reloading a rimfire, although i forget what caliber, by using the white tip of match heads. If I remember correctly, when he spun it trying to force it into the rim, it just went up the side of the case?

Thanks again for info,
Ken

 

[glowe]

Back in the early 1990s I bought 2 cases of Navy Arms 32 Long and Short ammo. I had several Model 2 and Model 1 1/2 revolvers and still shoot them. I am now down to 8 boxes out of the original 20, and plan on outliving what is left, so I better get to shooting.

I rarely see Navy Arms ammo for sale anywhere. The last box was at a collectible ammunition auction and went for over $100. Buying the old stuff is a gamble. Back when I was doing some research on original BP rounds; velocities, capacities, bullet weights, etc. and went through lots of duds before I got what I needed. Today, collector 32 RF ammo is to expensive, getting somewhat difficult to find, and quite unreliable.

 

[Pat Margroin]

Thanks for the info Gary, I do appreciate you taking the time to reply. Because I like tinkering, I may buy the h&c kit for the long case, and then buy a few short cases and round balls from dixie. And get some FFFFg.

I'll let you know how it turns out, but it will likely take a month or so.....

Thanks again,
Ken

 

[McShooty]

Here is a thread I started several years ago. It got exactly zero comments, but it addresses exactly what you are trying to do. The use of Dixie's machined cases is not very satisfactory, but they will fire if you follow directions. The CCI 22 blanks used for ignition seemed to add more than I expected to the power of the load, which is really pretty peppy.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/186016-machined-cases-model-1-1-2-tip-up.html

 

[Pat Margroin]

Thanks for the info, Mr. McShooty, I read through a few of your earlier posts and put a few rounds together and shot them on Thursday.
After reading a bit more of black powder, I decided to go with FFFg.
I used the dixie round balls in the 32 short cases. How did you seat the balls? They seem a bit too big for the cases, so I lightly tapped them into place with a rubber mallet with the H&C die set which i bought.
After the first two rounds, I got a little excited and loaded all five, but the recoil unseated the rest, so that rained on that parade. I believe your post said that, but alas, the excitement got the best of me.

Anyway, the H&C website also sells ~85 grain cast bullets that I believe they advertise for the 32 long and short. The "Cartridges of the World" states the original 32 short RF had 8 or 9 grains of black powder with an 80 grain bullet.
Has anyone used the H&C cast bullets in the 32short? They seem to fit the case better. Or, any opinions on such? I haven't tried it yet, but would it be possible to not fully seat them to ensure the full 9 (That number is by memory, I'll verify) grains go in?
Thanks,
Ken

 

[glowe]

The only way to get 9 grains in those short cases would be to go to 4F powder. The best bet would be to work up a loading process for the 32 Long case. The advantage to using a 32 Long case is that you can seat the bullet deeper in the case which will help in keeping it from moving forward as you fire. Also, you can probably get 9 grains of 3F in a 32 Long case and seat the bullet or round ball deeper. That should give you a better shooting experience.

It was common to use a paper patch when hand loading cartridges in the 1800s. You might try to wrap your round ball in paper before seating them. Remember that when using black powder, you seat the bullet firmly against the powder and it does not make much difference how far in you have to push the bullet to seat if properly. The deeper the better when you cannot crimp the bullet in place. Some people also get good results using Teflon tape.

 

[Plain Old Dave]

Older thread, but worthy of resurrection. Original cases for the 32 Short/Long Colt were balloon head and had a greater capacity, never mind that RF cases have no primer pocket. A somewhat more modern comparison is the .45-70 Government. Even with a drop tube, it is impossible to get 70 grains of any sort of black powder into a modern solid head .45-70 case as there's just not room.

It IS to be wondered how well Triple Seven might work in these substitute .32RF cases.....