Reloading Help!

[Oldmanwesson]

I use the Lee scoops all the time but I use them to throw a charge that is light by a few 10th's, then I trickle up to the desired weight. The scoops are consistent enough to replicate factory "plinking" ammo but not (in my opinion) repeatable enough for min/max charges.
There are some great suggestions above. One thing I will add to the question of low volume charges is that you can take up some of this space to prevent erratic ignition. One common method is to stuff a pinch of Dacron pillow wadding over the powder charge to hold it against the flash hole when firing.

I thought of doing that. I've heard that if the powder is too far forward of the flash hole it may not ignite properly (which I think happened to one of mine). One other thing I noticed with the length of the cartridge case is that the original 38-44 case was based on the early 1 7/16 cylinder but when S&W changed the length to 1 9/16 the ammo stayed the same. So, in the later revolvers the rim of the cartridge is about 1/8 inch back from the front of the cylinder. My .357 magnum cartridges are also about 1/8 shy of the front of the 1 7/16 cylinder. The gap should therefore not be a problem. Should work fine, then. I got my powder scale and my custom made measure is actually bang-on. Exactly 3.8gr of powder as suggested by Alliant's loading tables. Here is a picture of an original 38-44 cartridge in the 1 9/16 cylinder of my other, pristine 38-44 which I will NEVER shoot...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just to give you my opinion , alot above is good advice.

First, A difference of 0.004" is insignificant when it comes to width. Do you realize how very small four-one thousandth of an inch is?

I also believe you need a scale. You don't have to spend a lot of money but a good balance beam scale will help you a lot. Look on the used market for an RCBS 5-0-2 or a 5-0-5 balance beam scale. You might find one for ~$50.

I also agree you should use a 148gr HBWC bullet. They are usually very accurate. Look for something with a BHN of 12 or less to prevent leading at low velocities.

I think you should use a faster powder than American Select for what you are doing. Bullseye, W231/HP-38, W244 or Zip will serve you better.

Of course this is all in my opinion, take what you think will help or use none of it. It's your ammo, your gun and your choice.

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Must to give you my opinion , slot above is good advice.

First, A difference of 0.004" is insignificant when it comes to width. Do you realize how very small four-one thousandth of an inch is?

I also believe you need a scale. You don't have to spend a lot of money but a good balance beam scale will help you a lot. Look on the used market for an RCBS 5-0-2 or a 5-0-5 balance beam scale. You might find one for ~$50.

I also agree you should use a 148gr HBWC bullet. They are usually very accurate. Look for something with a BHN of 12 or less to prevent leading at low velocities.

I think you should use a faster powder than American Select for what you are doing. Bullseye, W231/HP-38, W244 or Zip will serve you better.

Of course this is all in my opinion, take you you think will help or use none of it. It's your ammo, your gun and your choice.

Thanks! It all helps. The quest continues...

 

[glowe]

I might have missed this, but 357 is not what you should use in a 38-44 Target round. The gun was designed for a .361 S&W bullet. The chamber was meant to be full of a brass case right up to the face of the cylinder, nothing shorter. .357 Maximum is the right case to start out with, but needs to be enlarged before loading or they will be damaged by the larger bullet. I had a expander made for that job. It is a simple thing that any machinist can do and is shown below. The attachment allows for a .361" bullet to be fully seated inside the case as was originally done using a 145g Round nose 38 S&W bullet. Image of original round is below. I used to work with Unique, but recently switched to Trail Boss. This powder fills much more of the case and keeps SD low. I am up to around 600 fps in an unusual 10" Single Shot Barrel, but is giving me some decent accuracy. I will be loading some higher volume TB loads to shoot over a chronograph, but want to stop at 700 fps to be kind to my old single shot pistol. Of course if loading BP, you still have to load to 1/16" above where the base of the fully seated bullet would set.

Problem with .357" is that the bullet is often too small to fully engage the rifling of a .361" barrel. At velocities above 700 fps, the bullet can strip through the rifling without sufficient spin to stabilize the bullet. Also, if the rifling is shallow, a .357" bullet will almost pass through the lands only touching the grooves. Rifling in revolvers seem to run from .002" to .005" and as the barrel wears, the bore gets even bigger and the rifling more shallow.

Loading a fully seated lead bullet in the case requires some extra care no matter what powder you use. One has to measure the overall length of the seated bullet and make sure you are not compressing the powder when seating. If one looks closely at the overall design of the cartridge, you will find the the fully seated bullets resemble the standard OAL of a 38 S&W cartridge, giving a starting point in the reloading tables for 38 S&W some credibility in designing your own loads.

Every job that is worth doing is worth doing right! First image below shows original 38-44 Target rounds on left, reformed 357 Max brass and a 145g .361" LRN. Second shows the simple expanded that is ran into the case beyond the depth of the seated bullet. Lastly, my 38-44 Single Shot.

 

[glowe]

Just to give you my opinion , alot above is good advice.

First, A difference of 0.004" is insignificant when it comes to width. Do you realize how very small four-one thousandth of an inch is . . .

The depth of rifling is doubled and makes all the difference in the world. Rifling measured by many will vary between .002 to .005" deep, and a .357" bullet in a 38 Special barrel will fill the bore to the bottom of the grooves, imparting full spin that stabilizes the projectile. The diameter of the lands in a 38 Special should only be less than .352".

The diameter of the lands in a 38 S&W is as big as .357", or .004" less than the .361 groove diameter. So a slightly oversized 357 bullet in a slightly smaller .361" might contact enough of the grooves to get required spin, but don't count on it.

Most people who shoot .357 in a 38 S&W barrel have not tried the right bullet, so cannot make a comparison. Having started out doing the same thing years ago has evolved into an exercise to improve accuracy. The key is to try both bullets and experiment first. Try the right bullet in the right caliber and I will almost guarantee improved accuracy, which for me is the name of the game.

 

[Nevada Ed]

.361 dia bullets are made by;

Matt's, Missouri & Buffalo arms.........
if they have them in stock, if youdeceide to try any.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The depth of rifling is doubled and makes all the difference in the world. Rifling measured by many will vary between .002 to .005" deep, and a .357" bullet in a 38 Special barrel will fill the bore to the bottom of the grooves, imparting full spin that stabilizes the projectile. The diameter of the lands in a 38 Special should only be less than .352".

The diameter of the lands in a 38 S&W is as big as .357", or .004" less than the .361 groove diameter. So a slightly oversized 357 bullet in a slightly smaller .361" might contact enough of the grooves to get required spin, but don't count on it.

Most people who shoot .357 in a 38 S&W barrel have not tried the right bullet, so cannot make a comparison. Having started out doing the same thing years ago has evolved into an exercise to improve accuracy. The key is to try both bullets and experiment first. Try the right bullet in the right caliber and I will almost guarantee improved accuracy, which for me is the name of the game.

Somehow I thought he was talking about the case, not the bullet diameter. You of course are correct. (don't get old lol)

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Somehow I thought he was talking about the case, not the bullet diameter. You of course are correct. (don't get old lol)

yes, I was talking about the case diameter. Good point about the bullet diameter, though. I will have to do some experimenting. Thank you!

 

[Oldmanwesson]

SUCCESS! My .357 cartridge with 3.8 gr American Select and a 105 grain bullet works just fine in the 38-44! I did a test with my 686 first, comparing the recoil to a factory load .38 special and then put it into my vintage 1890's 38-44. It was BEAUTIFUL! Soft recoil, consistent results, accurate. Couldn't be better. Nice to see the old girl working again!! The picture is of an original 38-44 cartridge and my .357 magnum cartridge with a deeply seated, un-crimped bullet. Yes, making a true-to-original cartridge from .357 maximum and .361 lead would be ideal, but if you're working with what you have, this ain't bad!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Congratulations, I'm glad you found the fix.

One thing though, I truly feel you should use a slight crimp to at least remove the flare on the case. It will also make your ammo more consistent. In a revolver the recoil can cause bullet pull and extend the bullet which can lock up the cylinder. I think a slight crimp will improve your ammo which you said is already very good. Just my opinion.

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Congratulations, I'm glad you found the fix.

One thing though, I truly feel you should use a slight crimp to at least remove the flare on the case. It will also make your ammo more consistent. In a revolver the recoil can cause bullet pull and extend the bullet which can lock up the cylinder. I think a slight crimp will improve your ammo which you said is already very good. Just my opinion.

Good point. I get what you are saying. I will try a few rounds with a light crimp. Thanks!

 

[glowe]

Crimp will not help the 38-44 Target since the conical bullet is set way down into the case and can move forward beyond the front of the cylinder while not yet touching the crimp. These are strange cartridges and were meant to simply be a brass tube right up to the rear of the barrel to minimize free-space. I am not surprised that your gun shoots satisfactorily, but with a 1/4" free space between the case and the rear of the barrel, you will get blow-buy and the bullet will likely shift and not enter the barrel perfectly. Blow-by around the bullet and blow-back with a loose case in the chamber will reduce performance and will get your revolver very dirty fast. Free space allows the bullet to cant before it enters the barrel, further reducing accuracy. Lastly, a .357 bullet likely will not get full spin through the bigger bore.

From what you see so far, it sounds like your gun could shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with the proper ammo. Once brass starts showing up again, please do try the process of trimming 357 Max to full cylinder length, expanding the case to take .361" bullets and you might well be amazed at how accurate these old revolver can be!

 

[glowe]

I just got back from the range yesterday shooting several different loadings of 38-44 Target and now have a good idea of the performance for what I was loading. I prefer Trail Boss for most of my vintage calibers, so loaded 3 and 3.5 grains, with a 145 grain LRN from Missouri Bullets set fully into the shortened 357 Rem Max cases. I have lots of Small Rifle primers and wanted to test the difference between SR and SP primers. Results are below and I think I am at the sweet spot with 650 to 750 fps on all loads.

3 grains Trail Boss - Small Pistol primers - 624 fps
3 grains Trail Boss - Small Rifle primers - 664 fps
3.5 grains Trail Boss - Small Pistol primers - 719 fps
3.5 grains Trail Boss - Small Rifle primers - 765 fps

Interesting that using small rifle primers raised the velocities by a consistent 6% in both loads. Good ignition and low standard deviation in all loads.

Can not guarantee satisfactory results in any other gun, so start low and work up to a load you are comfortable shooting.