reloads and the law

[Forrest r]

This has been some very interesting reading & I thank everyone for their input. I believe that the answers given in this thread are as diverse as they are due to the fact of where people live. Different states, rural or city living all come into play along with the political climate of the elected officials of the different areas.

In the area that I live in I can see some of the local judges allowing an excessive force lawsuit to happen as a way of controlling private citizens that own guns & use them for SD. What I would call a frivolous law suit they would call allowing an attorney a chance to making a living. I'd rather not go thru an expensive lawsuit over me opening the door by using reloads for SD. I'd rather pay $50 for a couple of boxes of factory ammo than $300 an hour for a lawyer. Any good lawyer going can & will make my reloads the cornerstone of their case & I will have a battle on my hands proving otherwise.

As I stated in an earlier post in the thread, it was explained to me that perception is everything. Facts mean nothing; the way people perceive things is what counts. The advice I received seemed to have merit, it tries protects me from danger/injury, criminal & civil law suits.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to use for SD, what the best load/weapon combo is or anything of that nature. I'm only giving examples of what I've decided to use & why I chose what I did to protect myself/family from danger/injury & lawsuits. I'll list a couple of other possibilities of what ammo/firearm combo that fits the criteria of what I chose for SD for purposes of perception.

Pistols are ok but I'm a huge shotgun fan & that is what I'll pick up every time for SD if I'm able to.
1. I use a standard 12ga 870 with a standard feed tube length & a standard 28" vented ribbed bbl with a 3" chamber, bead target sights & screw in chokes with the skeet choke installed. The load that I use for SD is the federal target load T178 in 71/2 shot & it's a 2 ¾" load that has in big letters on the box "TARGET LOAD".
2. I use the same shotgun as in #1 & use my reloads in it.
3. I use a pump shotgun with a 3" chamber, pistol grip, sawed off 16" bbl, an extended MAG tube filled with 3" buckshot & deer slugs.
All of the above firearm/ammo combos are completely legal to use & own. The one most likely to keep me out of lawsuits is the firearm/ammo combo in #1. It's actually a stronger load than my reloads that have the same 1 1/8oz load but only are rated at 1200fps. The perception is that my reloads could be anything but "Target LOADs" but they are just that, target loads. The perception is that I'm using a target load in a target shotgun with a target choke in the bbl. If anyone asks me why I'm using a handicap load (heavier target load) in my shotgun. I'll tell them I'm a terrible shot at trap and skeet & need all the help I can get.

When I do rely on a pistol I like the big heavier bullets of the larger calibers, it's just a personal preference.
1. My 1st choice is a 45acp, I own two of them & use the 1911 that's setup for target shooting (target trigger, target sights, target grips, ECT). The ammo that I use is federals GM45A, it's their 230gr FMJ "MATCH TARGET AMMO" & it states so on the box.
2. I use the same pistol with my 230gr LRN reloads.
3. I use a combat setup 1911 with the hot federal PD45HS3H load with epoxy filling the HP's just for good measure.
Again all of the firearm/ammo combos are legal but the #1 combo will be the one most likely to keep me out of lawsuits. My reloads are actually tamer than the federal target loads because I try to keep the speeds of my 230gr LRN bullets around 800fps & the federal target loads are rated at 860fps. But any good lawyer will argue differently. It's a very powerful perception that I'm just using a target load in a target pistol when the real truth is that my reloads are truly the target load.

My choice in a backup pistol or 2nd pistol would be a revolver.
1. A S&W 44mag. With at least a 6"bbl, a target trigger, target hammer & target sights. The ammo that I use is federals C44SA, it's a "TARGET AMMO" that's in 44SPL with a 200gr LHP bullet.
2. The same pistol with my reloads in 44SPL.
3. The same pistol with federals P44HS1 load.
All the firearm/ammo combos are legal to use, but again #1 combo is perceived to have the least amount of overkill. I'm using a "TARGET 44SPL" load in a 44MAG & if anyone asks me why I'm using a HP bullet for target shooting. My answer will be that I was told that it would be the safest bullet to use, a soft lead HP bullet, for target shooting with bowling pins, cowboy action events or steel plates/challenges because the soft lead HP bullet will flatten out on impact greatly reducing the chance of any ricochets. Again my reloads are actually tamer than these factory loads & I use a 214gr SWC bullet, not a HP bullet & they are only traveling at around 850fps. It's the perception of a reload VS a target load because it clearly says it's a "TARGET LOAD" on the box.

In all the firearm/ammo combos that I use I've tried to use a combo that will protect my family physically as well as finically. It would be hard for any judge say that I used excessive force with any of these choices as long as I didn't go crazy & put an excessive number of shots into a BG/BG's. It would be hard for any lawyer to argue that any of the firearm/ammo combos are excessive. Could they be loaded down more with lighter loads? Absolutely!!! But they also could easily be loaded up a lot heavier/hotter, the shotgun could have easily been loaded with a multitude of various 3"MAG ammo. There's a ton of different SD ammo out there for the 1911 along with seemingly endless extremely powerful loads for the 44MAG.

The perception that I'm using target firearms with factory target ammo is very compelling. These facts will go a long way in aiding me with favorable decisions the law enforcement agencies/courts will be making about any premeditation of the shooting, the justification of the shooting & any civil lawsuits that could arise from the shooting.

I'm sorry for being so long winded & I'm not trying to tell anyone what firearm or ammo to use. I would love to use reloads for SD, there's just too many different things riding on the ammo choices I make.

 

[Jellybean]

The rumor that reloads will get you in trouble pretty much started with Mas' article that discussed the Bias case, that is why it is mentioned every time the topic comes up by the way. Mas has stated on this forum several times that the idea he was trying to get across was that in the case of a self defense shooting, where the shooter is required to prove justification in the use of deadly force, handloads do not offer the benefits of exemplar evidence or trusted factory documentation as tools to help prove your argument. At least that's the way I understand it, and if that is correct then we can put the "handloads can get you into trouble" theory to rest. But it will then arouse the theory that they won't get you out of the trouble that you are already in.

...3.I use a pump shotgun with a 3" chamber, pistol grip, sawed off 16" bbl,...

If this isn't a typo, then you aren't as legal as you thought and reloads would be the last of your worries.

 

[parabarbarian]

BTW; The way the lawyers and courts are going we'll be fighting PETA next in court for what hunting bullets were using too.

In California we already have the so-called "condor zones" where I cannot even have a lead bullet and a firearm that will chamber it simultaneously in my possession while hunting.

 

[Forrest r]

Thankyou for correcting me, it should read an 18" bbl.

 

[Jellybean]

No problem. I'd thought about the possibility that it was a NFA weapon, but two inches isn't worth the red tape.

 

[Oldbuck30]

I don't care about all this legal mumbo jumbo, but, where do you buy the 22 ammo that makes the bad guys head explode off his body. that's my kind of ammo!!!!!

 

[Nevada Ed]

So if you are brought to a civil case.............

if you win, or the case dismissed............
can you counter sue for damages and court cost?

 

[shooter5112]

I have to amend my earlier remarks: When choosing ammunition you do need to consider the state you live in. Apparently some states actually allow ammunition selection to be introduced as evidence in an intentional shooting. I didn't know that. Seriouisly, I thought that would have gone the way of pressing.

In what states are there any mention of weapons or ammunition in their justified self defense statutes?

 

[Rule3]

This thread is 3 years old and should be buried someplace far away and very deep.

 

[Waywatcher]

I don't care about all this legal mumbo jumbo, but, where do you buy the 22 ammo that makes the bad guys head explode off his body. that's my kind of ammo!!!!!

Resurrecting a 3 year old thread about reloads for defense to add this meaningful tidbit to the conversation? Really?

 

[rwsmith]

I don't think it matters.....

It's worth remembering: Lawyers are experts in the law and its application, not experts on firearms, ammunition or even their use.

I don't think it matters how much they know about firearms as much as how they can confuse and paint the issues.

 

[rwsmith]

This keeps coming up....

Again I would like to point out the Arizona case of Harold Fish where the procecution contended that Fish had come to the hiking trail ready to kill someone because he carried a 10mm semi auto. He spent a couple of years in jail for second degree murder before the verdict was overturned and he was released.

That being said, I don't care one iota about being 'overarmed'. If a situation is bad enough where a trigger has to be pulled, it doesn't matter to me if it's a .22 or a .44 mag or a homemade 'Death Special'. I also don't believe a legitimate SD case in South Carolina is going to go against a victim that is forced to fire.

 

[novalty]

This thread reminds me, I miss Skip.

 

[Jellybean]

Unlike the Bias case there was quite a bit of information about Harold Fish on the internet, plus there was an episode on one of the 'true-crime' shows where he explained the way the incident occurred.

The prosecution had made some comments that showed their ignorance of firearms, and some general ignorance as well, which was pretty popular on the gun forums. However, there was a lot more information given during the trial that was left out of the forum debates. Having watched the show and listened to his version of the story, there was pretty much no doubt in my mind that he was guilty as charged.

Also, his verdict wasn't overturned because someone looked at the trial and decided he wasn't guilty or there was any kind of procedural misconduct. At the time of the shooting the law read that in the case of a homicide the killer had to prove he was justified in taking another persons life, in other words, he was guilty until he could prove his innocence, which he couldn't do. A short time later the law was changed to read the standard innocent until proven guilty, which the prosecution couldn't do either. His defense counsel asked the governor to change the effective date of the change in the law to the date it was proposed instead of the date it was approved, which was before the shooting took place. And he granted their request.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

In just about any defensive shooting incident, including the most clear cut righteous cases, you can count on being sued (especially if you own a home, have a job, etc). The object of the exercise is to get the money, not to prove right or wrong.

Lawsuits are matters of civil law, not criminal statutes. There is no "written law", only theories of liability and precedents set in other cases. The standard used in deciding cases is "a preponderance of the evidence" rather than "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt", as used in criminal matters. Penalties sought may include actual damages (medical bills, rehab expenses, lost wages, loss of future earnings, disabilities, disfigurement, etc, etc, etc), punative and exemplary damages, as well as legal fees and court costs.

Attorneys representing each party will make every attempt to load the "evidence" presented with anything and everything that possibly makes their side look better and the opposing side look worse. Elements that might be used to sway a jury in a shooting scenario could be why a person was shot multiple times, why a person was shot in the back, why the shooter chose to carry an unusually powerful weapon, or the type of ammunition used. Anything and everything they can possibly support a claim of negligence, or wilfull and wanton behavior, might be introduced and argued.

Civil cases can drag on for several years with depositions, "expert witnesses" evaluating physical evidence or running reenactments, motions hearings, and other procedures before a trial might actually be held. In the interim attorneys' fees and associated expenses are racked up, the clock keeps ticking, and the parties to the case are put through a wringer financially and emotionally. Plaintiffs' attorneys know that many defendants (especially when there is an insurance policy involved) will choose to settle the case for an amount less than claimed, or less than what they might expect to have to pay for attorneys, expert witnesses, and other trial expenses (this is refered to as "nuisance value"), even when there is no real evidence to support the claims made. Pre-trial expenses can easily total tens of thousands of dollars, and actual trials might run into the hundreds of thousands, so making a case go away for a modest settlement could be an attractive solution to your homeowners' insurance claims department.

The issue about handloaded ammunition has been bandied about quite a bit, but I don't recall seeing any actual references to this issue being successfully used in actual civil cases. That doesn't mean that it cannot or will not be.

My suggestions for those who are put into the position of defending themselves with deadly force are:
(1) shut up, lawyer up, and let your attorney do all the talking;
(2) carry good personal liability insurance, which can make legal representation available at the insurance company's expense rather than your own (realizing that the attorneys will be representing primarily your insurance company, and you only as necessary to defend against the claims made;
(3) selection of a caliber and ammunition of the type used by your local, county, state police or FBI/US Secret Service, etc, makes it possible to bring in all sorts of evidence resulting from testing of various types for suitability in defensive handgun use. Loads of published data, plenty of expert witnesses, etc.

The guy who carries a .50 Desert Eagle loaded with handloads with arsenic pellets in the hollow points presents a different picture to a jury than the guy who carries the same handgun model chosen by his local police department or sheriff's office, loaded with the same ammunition issued to the cops.

My $0.02 worth.

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

Is your friend an attorney? Judge? If not, he should stick to things he knows about.

Even if he is, he has NO idea what he is talking about-- period-- there is NO case on record I know of where this has been a issue-- keep posting this bilge and give the antis some more 'ammo' to use against us.

 

[novalty]

Best advice is agree to disagree. We've already lost 1 member to this topic. Don't need any more with fancy rank of "Banned" under their screen name.

 

[TAROMAN]

 

[federali]

Lawyer Tactics

I guess they learn it on lawyering 101: If the evidence is weak, attack the evidence, if the evidence is strong, attack the witness. I think the admonition of not using hand loads for self defense springs from a very astute and well-meaning lawyer who hoped to shut down every possible avenue of character impeachment available to the plaintiff following an otherwise justifiable shooting.

Worse, it must be remembered that in the various criminal codes, deadly force is an absolute. That is, you can't kill someone a little bit. deadly force is exactly that; a force that makes you dead or leaves you with life altering injuries. The problem in our left-leaning liberal society is that lawyers have indeed tried to introduce degrees of deadly force as a tactic of character impeachment. Does anyone remember the hoopla raised by Black Talon Ammo? Thus, use of hand loads or ammunition with ominous names could provide the opposition with an avenue of attack, as will those bumper and door stickers promising an armed response at the slight provocation.

Considering the high quality of factory loads available to us, there's little need to resort to hand loads, and, I've been reloading for 55 years.

 

[Jellybean]

...I think the admonition of not using hand loads for self defense springs from a very astute and well-meaning lawyer who hoped to shut down every possible avenue of character impeachment available to the plaintiff following an otherwise justifiable shooting...

Actually it sprang from a magazine writer. To the best of my knowledge it's never really been an issue in a real court trial.

Considering the high quality of factory loads available to us, there's little need to resort to hand loads, and, I've been reloading for 55 years.

I see this a lot in this forum, and it really confuses me. As far as quality goes there is nothing that factory ammo offers that handloads can't deliver. It all depends on the person doing the loading and the effort they put into it. I also feel that it is possible to get better quality than much of the factory ammo available today. I know that people load for different reasons and quality isn't always at the top of everyone's list, but if you can and do load ammo that is equal to or better than factory, why would you feel the need to go to a store and buy some?