Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

Doug.38PR

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And a snub nose J frame or D frame mean't a snub nose?

Most young people like me hear the term ".38 Special" today and they think of a small compact pistol that carries 5 shots in the cylinder (maybe 6 if they happen to know what a Detective Special is) and is used by non-gun people who just want "something" to have in the drawer or a cop or civilian might have as a "backup" gun. The round itself that the gun shoots is deemed "just a .38 special"

But in my dad's generation. (wartime babies and Baby Boomer gen) a .38 Special wasn't "just" anything and it was considered a front line service gun that the average policeman and civilian alike depended on for an all around fundamental defense weapon that had either a 4, 5 or 6 inch barrel.

Before I even bought my first gun my dad had been saying for years that he always wanted "a .38 Special. The old policeman's revolver." Didn't even say a brand name. Plain Jain gun. No bells and whistles. No overbearing grips.

One day, about 9 years ago, I went out bought my first handgun. I had always thought I would get a 1911 .45. Looked cool. But there was something about that plain jane ".38 Special" that dad always talked about that just jumped out in my mind. Used S&W M-10s were here and there under the gun counter at the local gun store. Looked like what I thought of as "A .38 Special." but then I saw a single gun next to them that looked the same only a little better somehow. Maybe it was the straight barrel rather than the tapered pencil barrel. Maybe it was the slightly larger cylinder. It was a Colt Official Police 4 inch that I was told was made in 1944.

I bought it for about $275. Wasn't sure what condition it was. Except the bore looked good. I wasn't very knowledgeable about guns at the time. Didn't know how to check for timing and such. My first gun. And I was excited.

Took it home. Dad was out somewhere. I put it on the stool of his chair in the den for him to see when he walked in.
I heard him come back about 20 minutes later. Walked into the room to see him starring down at it. "That's a .38 Special" he said.

As much as dad admired my first piece, he said he identified more with the S&W version as that's what he remembers the police in Jackson, MS carrying as a boy. About a month later I went back down to that same gunstore, as it was his birthday, and bought a S&W M-10 4 inch pencil barrel like new with the original box from 1971. Wrapped it, put a bow on it. And on his birthday, he was proud to get that. And to this day, everytime I say "your Model-10" he looks at me funny and has to think about it, "Oh my .38 Special?"

(as a side note, I later got him a Post 1972 Colt Agent, yet to this day he still calls it his "snub nose Detective Special")

I later got another Colt Official Police postwar from 1961, had it refurbished and is in better condition. I've gone through a lot of other guns. But it always comes back to that Colt Official Police, that .38 Special that always winds up in my holster, suitcase or on the firing line with me. Much as I love that 1961 gun, I still wish I could restore that 1944 version to prime condition even though it's still a good shooter (it's one flaw is that the bolt can go back up the ramp on one of the notches because the notches are so worn). The .38 Special is not too heavy, not too bulky, no adjustable sights to get knocked out of alignment, no rubber grips to bulge, nor is it too small or too weak and has a sturdy enough frame to handle more than adequate loads. Simple fundamental weapon that becomes a part of my hand.
 
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Well, I'm a baby boomer, but I've never really considered the .38 Special as a serious service revolver. To me it was the .357 magnum or the .41 magnum. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily feel the .38 is a pipsqueak, but it does pale in comparison to the other two. In it's original loading, a 158gr RNL it was marginal at best, quite often overpenetrating. Nowadays it's performance as with the 9mm, is greatly improved by the lighter, faster moving and more efficient JHP's.

Now back in the mid to late 50's every TV cop or detective had some form of a .38 and it was kind of burned into our brains at an early age what a powerful gun it was. But that was TV and movies. Truth is, that was what the the FBI and major departments were using so they must have been the "serious service revolvers", right?? :rolleyes:

When I was a cop and carried revolvers in the 70's and 80's, my first choice was always the .357. I rarely carried a .38 Special and when I did it was either a Colt Diamondback or a S&W Model 60, but my favorite plainclothes or undercover piece was a 2 1/2" Model 66, which I still have. Okay, I'm starting to ramble, someone else's turn...................:D
 
Another baby boomer here. I also carried revolvers for the first part of my career. In 1977, it was a 4" Model 28-2 in one of those new-fangled Bianchi front break holsters. Had speed strips in dump pouches at first. Later got some speed loaders. I even carried .357 ammo.

Later, liability created by a fear of .357 caused a change to .38 Special +P. I then figured I didn't need that heavy M28 and went to the M19. For me, that was the end of the revolver as a duty weapon. I still carried Chief Specials off-duty, but we eventually went to the 645/4506 and changed to 669/6906/3913 models for off-duty and plain-clothes assignments.

The .45 and 9mm, especially now with the available bullet designs, are quite effective, but I still miss the .357 sometimes. However, the current bullet configurations also make the .38 Special a viable round. These days, my duty gun is a G17. I've learned to live with it.
 
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Way back when, my first hand gun after the .22 was a .44 mag. Added a .45 a little bit later. To me the .38 was an inferior cartridge . That was until I bought one about 15 years ago. Simply love that caliber. Between the 10's, 64's and J frames I think I'm up to about 10 now. Great guns and more fun than you can imagine.
 
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My dad served in the Army during Korea and immediately thereafter.

When he completed his service, he was allowed to purchase his service sidearm. Which was a 38 special snubby. He still has it today. Never shoots it, but to me, its a piece of history.
 
1962 I start my LEO career. The Agency furnish the uniform, badge and vehicle .The individual officer furnish everything else. The required service weapon was a six shot, .38spl revolver, with four to six inch barrel (Colt or S&W). I didn't have a .38spl revolver but did have a 1915 DWM 9mm Luger. The local Pawn Shop traded me a used Colt Trooper 4" .38spl (w/ franzite stag grips) for the Luger.

*** in that era a .32 was considered a great defense weapon
 
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My dad served in the Army during Korea and immediately thereafter.

When he completed his service, he was allowed to purchase his service sidearm. Which was a 38 special snubby. He still has it today. Never shoots it, but to me, its a piece of history.


+1. The .38 was also the CHOICE of pilots in Vietnam, and LEO's for 90 years.
 
Back in the good old days it seemed like the people who knew a thing or two objected more to the then common .38 Special ammunition than to the caliber. The original ".45 King" Jeff Cooper himself was not averse to a proper .38 Special in the right circumstances, but he deplored the LRN load for the obvious reasons. Many of us who read his material started using his old "160 LSWC and 5.0 of Red Dot" load that he recommended for stainless Chief's Specials, until it became apparent he was encouraging "handloading delinquency." :D For some reason, he thought the stainless guns were sturdier than the blued steel versions, which I always thought was odd. Anyway, these days we have better loading data and know there are plenty of .38 Special loads that do the same thing and are not quite so hard on the guns.
 
I'm a mid term Baby Boomer.....1953

My Dad started carrying a 6inch Colt New Service in .357magnum in 1939; and that's the police gun of my youth.....

In the 60s as a Lt. (when not in uniform) and then Captain he carried a 4 inch Pre Model 10 or Colt Detective Special....... with either the FBI +P 158 SWCHP load or I remember some "Super Vel" ? ammo boxes ...... though I think he settled on the FBI load for everyday carry.

After Law School my first gun was a 4 inch, heavy barrel Model 10..... Dad gifted me a couple of boxes of the FBI +P "Police Only" loads...... .38spl. was for practice only! Within a year I'd traded up to my first 19.
 
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I too, once worked for a state agency that did not allow personal weapons and issued the .38 spl. S&W Model 10/64 with the 4" barrel. Oddly enough, at qualifications this agency did not use the "classic" 158 grn. lead rnd. nose but instead provided a 130 grn. jacketed round nose round. We used to joke about it because if you were in the last group to shoot on qualification days (around sunset), the sun would be directly behind the firing line and if one stood behind any given shooter when they were at the 25 yd. line, you could actually see the bullet in flight. We estimated that round to be giving an actual 580- 650 fps., tops. The good news was that it was an accurate round and easy to qualify with. The other good news was that we later moved on to a .40 S&W semi-auto.
 
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I'm a late 'Boomer' born in 1966.

Revolvers were still the police guns of my youth in Tucson, AZ.

However the guns I remember are S&W Model 66's. They looked so powerful. My first experience shooting a handgun was a 4" Model 19 that belonged to a family friend who was a parole officer. He loaded it with .38 Special target wadcutters, and even though it was my first time firing a handgun I did very well with it.

Having said all that, I still have enormous respect for the .38 Special cartridge.

Somebody on another forum posted "The only place where the .22LR and the .38 Special are not deadly is on the Internet." I firmly believe it and trust my life to it sometimes. Right now I'm wearing a Model 60 with 5 .38 +P'S.

My wife's house gun is one of the Aussie 3" Model 10's. She is very accurate with it and I would not want to be an intruder standing in front of her!
 
War baby (1944)....... the .38 Special is still special. You do your job and it will do what it is supposed to do. My first issue sidearm was the S&W M-15, finished up my Air Force time with an issued S&W M-36 with a 3" barrel. Gott'er done!
 
I enlisted in the Army in 1974, and went into the Military Police. I was trained and issued a 1911, and loved it.

Then in 1980, I became a U.S. Customs Patrol officer, and I was issued a S&W model 66 .357 magnum, with 4" barrel. I initially didn't care for the 66, but after a couple of weeks of firearms training at the academy, I became a very proficient shooter with the revolver.

We were issued .357 magnum ammunition, but most of us carried the Treasury +P+ .38 special developed for the Secret Service. I performed very well, with less recoil and muzzle flash. I carried the 66 as my uniform duty piece for two years, then semi automatic pistols were authorized for use, and I went back to my 1911.

During my career I carried a model 60 as a back up gun, and was even issued a CS-1, but rarely carried it. In 1994, personally owned guns were banned, and we were issued Glock 19s and Glock 26s.

I carried the Glock 19 until 2003, when Customs was absorbed into Department of Homeland Security, and issued myself (I was a Senior Firearms Instructor) an H&K USP Compact in .40 cal. I carried that until I retired in 2005.

Now as a CCW holder, I will still carry my S&W 442. I love revolvers, but because they only carry six rounds, they have fallen out of favor as duty carry weapon for most law enforcement agencies.
 
I'm a Gen X'er and grew up in the era of the Wonder Nines and AWB. As a cop I've carried .40 S&W GLOCKs but I always had a 642 until a recent policy change. I own Model 64s, 10s, 15s, etc... and I have carried them off duty numerous times. I respect the .38 Special and know that it can still do the job. Has it been eclipsed somewhat with newer cartridges? Sure,but it hasn't diminished in its lethality. The .38 Special with a good modern JHP will still lay the smack down if need be and I don't feel under armed with one.
 
I remember when I was 11 years old (1950) on a family visit to relatives in Kentucky. I was in the back seat of our car when my dad and my grand-uncle, a country doctor, were talking about a local miscreant who got shot by a homeowner. I remember "uncle doc" speaking about the fact that he was shot with a .38 special, not a .22 or a .32, in somewhat reverent tones. The .38 special was still a big deal in that era.

Here are a couple of standout .38 special guns that were commonly used by police in the 1920s and 1930s. The one on top is a S&W M&P, Model of 1905, 4th change, dating from 1923. The lower gun is a Colt Police Positive Special, 1st model, which was produced in 1922. Both have 6-inch barrels.

COLT_AND_SampW_zpsff1243d5.jpg


When the Smith N-frame Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman .38 specials were introduced, they took the new higher-powered .38/44 cartridges, which today would be considered on a par with many of today's .357 magnum loads. These guns were the direct predecessors of the .357 revolvers. Here's a 1957 Heavy Duty:

SampW_HD2-1280_zps0f495633.jpg


The .38 special is not to be sneezed at as a viable defense cartridge even today.

John
 
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This is another Great thread!!

Have the good luck to be friends with a former armorer
who has told me tons of things about old and new guns.
Because of that, I have respect for cartridges that are laughed at
in today's world. Nowadays, I'll carry just about anything,
in the knowledge that generations have depended on .25's,
.32's, & etc. to protect the people that carried them.
The way I see it, you're only under-gunned if you are Not
carrying. A 442 with 200gr goodness in all the holes is
my current load, but I'm not worried if I'm using wadcutters, either.
We all have to find our own way.....
TACC1
 
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Paladin,

Don't have any experience with the .38 heavy duty.......

..... but I seem to remember that the .38 spl. case was/is a "black powder" size case and there is a lot of room in there for smokeless powder.... to get that .38 moving to .357 speeds and power.

The only reason for the ".357cartrage" was to give it a longer case so it wouldn't fit in all those old .38s out there.......

Seems all our ammo is wimpy compared to the era when men were men and .....Elmer Keith was building true "hand cannons!"
 
but because they only carry six rounds, they have fallen out of favor as duty carry weapon for most law enforcement agencies.

Many shooters today think that they can use "spray-and-pray" in place of careful shot placement. They frequently use the "I'm being attacked by multiple assailants" argument. This has elevated high-cap semi-automatic pistols to fashion statements.

When I was instructing, I would ask my high-cap-infatuated students what those assailants would be doing to justify the student shooting at them. "Why, shooting at me, of course". Then I would ask how the high-cap pistol would protect them from all those incoming rounds while they were shooting. That question was usually followed by a brooding silence.

Next, they would pop up with "well, the 38 is useless" at which point I would share the exploits of a couple NYPD officers and their experiences with plain ol' M10 38s.

After that the conversation usually devolved into suggestions about the marital status of my parents. "A man convinced against his will is unconvinced still" :rolleyes:
 
Well, I'm a baby boomer, but I've never really considered the .38 Special as a serious service revolver. To me it was the .357 magnum or the .41 magnum. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily feel the .38 is a pipsqueak, but it does pale in comparison to the other two.

Now back in the mid to late 50's every TV cop or detective had some form of a .38 and it was kind of burned into our brains at an early age what a powerful gun it was. But that was TV and movies.

Yes, but it was also TV and movies where cops packed 6" .357s under their suit & blazed away with little recoil, or fired a .44 magnum with a single hand. And seem to "stitch" the bad guys, connecting with every round, when in truth the best law enforcement agencies manage 25% hits (dunno if that # is current)
 
With the right ammo, I think an M&P from 1947 ...... would still be a "serious service revolver".

I'm with you GF. A good standard pressure load with a LSWCHP bullet will clean a miscreant's clock.

I would have a 1952 M&P today but the one I recently saw at a local LGS was poorly refinished and had a trigger like an RG-Rohm. For $400+!!! Well, this is the People's Republik.
 
I remember some "Super Val" ?

Super Vel, pretty advanced ammo for the time. Lighter weight bullets, sharp angled ogive, a +P type loading, and an exposed lead hollow point to help assure expansion. I still have some in .44 Mag laying around the house somewhere. It's what I carried in my 29 back then.
 

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