Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

I don't even like round nosed ammo for target shooting.
Wadctters and semi wadcutters make holes that are easier for my eyes to see.

Many years ago, I had a Rossi 68 .38 3".
I was in the woods shooting it with a variety of ammo.
A HUGE oak tree (blowdown) was my backstop.
The only round of 158 RNL I fired that day bounced off the trunk and hit me in the belt buckle.
Hurt like hell. Put a good scare into me. Did not penetrate, thank God.
I used the rest of the box of RNL at the indoor range, where I didn't have to worry about ricochets.
Or so I thought.
That same year, I was at the range and there were some gangsta-thug wannabes shooting on the lane on the far end of the range from me.
They had some sort of .45 caliber Tupperware SMG lookalike and were shooting it (sideways, of course) with some cheap .45 RNL.
Yeah, it jammed a bunch.
Yeah, they were cursing a bunch.
Yeah, their "groups" looked like 100 yard buckshot patterns.
Anyway, somehow, one of them managed to hit one of the concrete roof suppport pillars and his slug ricocheted and hit me in the right thigh.
Yeah, it hurt like a ***.
It broke the skin but didn't penetrate.
It felt like getting hit with a baseball.
 
I started in law enforcement in 1976. My first handgun was a 1911 type .45. Next was a 1917, then a .44 Special. Went back to the 1911, only this time I built a full size 1911, but based it on an aluminum frame. I also carried various .45 Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 ACP revolvers.

I owned a few .357 revolvers, but bought them for target use. The only time I carried a .38 special was for an ankle carry back-up.
 
I have several .357's and like them very much. But for practice, I'll shoot .38 specials all day long. I carry either a .40 S&W or .45 ACP (dept. issue), but feel fully armed with a .38 special. Any handgun caliber is a tradeoff of usefulness/availability versus effectiveness.

Since it has been 10 posts without a photo, time for one now.

M67Small_zps6b59f04e.jpg

Model 67 (no dash) circa 1972
 
Bill Jordan said the 38 Special was the most powerful cartridge the average man could hope to achive any degree of mastery with, Charlie Askins was pretty deadly with one, as was Jim Cirillo.
Mine-Security Industries of America (Made in NJ) snub, Colt Official Police, Detective Special Old Model, Detective Special '72, S&W Combat Masterpiece made in 1953.
 
Both the .38 Special and 9mm have been the beneficiaries of a lot of experimentation and improvements over the last 50 years or so. You can't compare the .38 Special of today with what we were stuck with in the 1970's, especially in rounds for short-barreled revolvers.
 
The .38 spl round changed very little over the years but people's perception of the round changed as newer and more powerful rounds were developed and introduced to the market.
 
My first duty sidearm was a 4" Model 10 .38 special loaded with RNL rounds. I was dispatched to assasinate a porkypine up in a tree. I shot him 6 times with that .38. He finally fell out of the tree due to the additional weight.

I kept thinkin' " what if that porky had a .38 and was shootin' back at me?"
That was all the excuse I needed to get me to the LGS and trade for the Model 58 .41 M&P I had been dreaming about for months, which I carried the rest of my LEO days.

That said, not being in a LEO role these days and with the improvement in .38 ammo, I've got a Model 12 .38 a hangin' on my hip and I don't feel a bit undergunned.
 
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tekarra said:
The .38 spl round changed very little over the years but people's perception of the round changed as newer and more powerful rounds were developed and introduced to the market.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think bullet design, powders, etc., have substantially improved the .38 Special cartridge. The reports I see on the Speer Gold Dot 135gr. +P for short barrels are very positive, to cite just one.

Having said that, however, I need to add that I still carry the old FBI load that has been around for over forty years. Now Buffalo Bore has come up with a low-flash standard-pressure version of that one that clocks an honest 880 fps from a two-inch barrel and a +P that gives almost 1100 fps.

I think the venerable caliber has come a long way. But you're right that other more powerful have come to prominence. They've been seen as more glamorous and touted as being wonder rounds.
 
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I remember standing in front of the gun counter at Epp's Sporting Goods on Gratiot in Detroit in about 1973 and taking my first serious look at the S&W 38 snub nosed model 49 sitting in the case.
I thought, "Man, i've got to get one of those one day." With the shrouded hammer, it looked to me like the head of a Cobra snake getting ready to strike.
I finally did buy one and carried it as an off duty and a backup gun for over 32 years. I still have it, along with other 38 Special revolvers.
Coming out of the police academy in Detroit in 1977, I was issued a model 10-5, five inch nickel revolver which I immediately put away and started carrying a model 29-2 in my own leather.
To me, the 38 Special was still a good compromise for a off duty but I knew the "bigger the better", all things considered.
The 38 Special has one of the longest histories of any cartridge and is inherently accurate. With modern ammo it can still be a good choice for self defense.
 
If Harry Callahan had been using a Glock 17, his dialogue would have been a bit different:

Callahan: I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire seventeen shots, or only sixteen? Now, to tell you the truth, I've forgotten myself in all this excitement. But bein' this is a 9 mm, the most common handgun in the world, and it'll perforate your head, you've got to ask yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?!
Yea,right

Best,
Rick
 
I'm the son of a baby boomers (born 1968). My father is retired cop (1970-1994). As a kid the .38 Special was definitely on it's way out as a "serious" or "duty" load. My father carried a nickel plated Model 10 for the first couple years of his career and then switched to a Model 28 in 73. In 91 his agency went to the Model 4586 (45ACP). So as a kid I was instructed that the .38 Special was acceptable for BUG and target shooting, but not as a serious duty/primary load.

Having said that one of my great uncles (dad's uncle) was a police officer for 36 years (1949-1985). He started out with a 6" nickel plated M&P (he was down in Tennessee - lots of humidity), went over to a 4" Model 10 with the heavy barrel in the late fifties and finally to a 2" Model 10 when he made detective in the sixties. That was the model he carried up to the day he retired in 85. He had to shoot three suspects during his 36 years as a cop. He not only made it to retirement, but he never went to the hospital. So the .38 worked for him.

Now my uncle was a gun guy and a good shot. He owned many magnum revolvers and various 9mm and 45ACP pistols, but he always stuck with the .38 Special revolver for his duty piece. Even after it was no longer mandatory. He liked the load and he trusted it. So go figure.

I collect .38 Special revolvers (Colt, Ruger & S&W). They tend to be more reasonably priced on the second-hand market and often they are in better condition than the magnum revolvers. Especially the duty models. Now I'm not so sure this state of affairs will continue, but for now I'm taking advantage of it. The .38 Special is one of my favorites.
 
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Jaymo said:
I remembered that Buffalo Bore loads ammo for it that really doesn't give up anything to any defensive pistol round.
I also remembered that Jim Cirillo put .38 wadcutters to very good use.
Click to expand...
I just ordered some boxes of the Buffalo Bore 150 gr. Hard Cast Wad Cutters. Looks like some pretty serious self defense ammo to me. I think I'll feel pretty confident with it in my M36.
 
BAM-BAM said:
in 1964 ..... we finally got the "ideal police round"*** ....... the .41magnum!!!!!!!

*** SCS&W p.220
Click to expand...

:) :) well said. I wish I could carry a 58.

Growing up in the 80's and being interested in police work and firearms, I knew the .38 Special was on its way out. however, I always considered it a great target piece and BUG, especially if it is properly loaded. Learning more about the round over the years, I don't think it is too bad. One of my BUG's is a 640.

Personally, I'd rather carry a properly loaded .38 Special out of a 4'' Heavy Duty than my issued Glock 22, but that is just me.
 
About two years ago, I was working in at the Courthouse in Farmerville, LA of Union Parish, Louisiana. Most of the police there seemed to carry Sig Sauer handguns. But one young deputy, probably younger than even me, was escorting some prisoners and was carrying a S&W revolver with magna grips (since they were magna not target I assume it is more possible that they were for a .38 Special rather than a .357 Magnum)
 
Bajadoc said:
You are assuming it was a success
Click to expand...

Years ago had to evaluate an employees' pre-employment record. 10 years on NYPD, three shootings, six fatalities. All with M10 and 158 RNL ammo, all "one shot stops."

He was not a gun guy, thought those of us who were gun guys were crazy. He just followed instructions and his training and proved a better success record than most of us have achieved.

All with the "inferior" 158 RNL load. His results changed my thinking.
 
There's no way the .38 Special may be considered not a success. Only a lack of experience with the round can make such an assertion.
 
Those of us who have fired the .38 Special in the line of duty understand that your marksmanship makes all the difference.

This Model 10 saved my life one dark night investigating an open door at a auto parts warehouse...my partner and I went home that night. The bad guys didn't. 158 gr. FBI LSWCHP +P.

 
oldafsp said:
This Model 10 saved my life one dark night investigating an open door at an auto parts warehouse...
Click to expand...

Glad it worked out OK for you and your partner, those are the outcomes we all pray for.

Nice lookin' rig, too. Found myself wanting to put it around my waist. (don't nobody mention that it wouldn't fit, ok? :rolleyes:). At the risk of seeming ol' fashioned, I still prefer a well-fitted leather holster and belt over plastic and web.
 
FIRST department issued weapon was a S&W model 10...back in the late 1960's. I forget the grain, but i know of officers that exchanged gunfire were it was later found that the round did not penetrate the subject's winter coat. Later they issued a heavy hollow point load, they were afraid of ricochets in the subways. Around 1980 we were issued Ruger Speed six's with hollow point +p rounds. I was allowed to carry my own S&W model 36, but i had to use the department ammo. The model 36 was not always happy with the +p ammo.
 
oldafsp said:
Those of us who have fired the .38 Special in the line of duty understand that your marksmanship makes all the difference.

This Model 10 saved my life one dark night investigating an open door at a auto parts warehouse...my partner and I went home that night. The bad guys didn't. 158 gr. FBI LSWCHP +P.

Click to expand...

Down the basement i still have two of my old Sam Brown rigs with holsters, cuff case and speed loaders still attached. Every couple of years i go down and try them on......How fat did i get?
 
Consider this there is at least one place in the U.S. where carrying a .38spl in uniform is required.

St. Louis City/County Metro Lic. Armed Security Officers can only carry a 4" 6 shot .38 spl, and no not a .357 with .38spl ammo.. a .38 spl. chambered revolver.

They have opened it up a bit so that certain people have exemptions (bank guards, ect) can carry 9mm semi-auto pistols (even those are regulated to certain ones).

Keep in mind, Missouri is also a CCW state.. So off duty you could carry that nice big 1911, or even a .357 snubby.. but on duty (no ccw in uniform) a .38 spl. 6 shot revolver 4" in length.
 
KKECK5 said:
Down the basement i still have two of my old Sam Brown rigs with holsters, cuff case and speed loaders still attached. Every couple of years i go down and try them on......How fat did i get?
Click to expand...
Hey! I resemble that remark. :)

I'm glad there are still cops who'd rather carry a good revolver than combat Tupperware.
I find it comforting that there are still LEOs who value marksmanship over lead-squirting.
 
"I'm glad there are still cops who'd rather carry a good revolver than combat Tupperware.
I find it comforting that there are still LEOs who value marksmanship over lead-squirting."

In my long insurance career, the oddest claim I ever had was some years ago when a client came into my office, "You know that new van I just bought? (for his cleaning business). It's full of bullet holes."

Seems a guy was being chased by the Portland (OR) police who had recently made the change from revolvers to 9mm s/a. My client was stopped at a red light, the bad guy opened the door, threw my client out and took off in the now-commandeered van.

Not to worry....the spray n' pray Portland Police were on the scene. And fired (they counted) 82 shots, 16 of which hit the van, one which skipped along the pavement and embedded itself into the heel of a gas-station attendant, two hit two different parked cars, and the rest went.....well, no one was ever sure. There were no other injuries, including the bad guy (yeah, he was eventually caught....by the canine unit).

A Commander, who was also a client, told me he thought they should limit cartridge capacity to 6....that way, they'd learn to shoot. "Bring back our +P 38's," he said.

Of course, they didn't....with tragic results. But that's another story. Don't want to hi-jack this post too much!
 
I am a huge old S&W M10 ect .38Spc fan. I love old service revolvers from the 40's through the 80's. BUT! The gun that started it all was my grandfather's 1941 Colt Official Police that was passed down and was the first hand gun I ever fired when I was 8 years old. I buy and sell alot by nature so lots of my old Smiths are now gone...but I still have the old Colt OP...
 
"yeah, he was eventually caught....by the canine unit)."

The "canine unit" knows the importance of good accuracy and penetration!

Best,
Rick
 
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