Remington 125 gr “ king of the streets”

[Dave Lively]

Is that the stuff where if the bullet doesn't get them the muzzle flash will? I have some 125gr Remington 357Mag that shoots sheets of flame from the muzzle and big bat wings from the cylinder gap on my 6" 686.

I have always wondered if part of 125 grain 357 ammo's great reputation is because it has the same effect as a flash bang grenade going off.

 

[Skeet 028]

The part about muzzle flash etc is about right. To be honest with the 357 it is not so true... LOUD but no real pressure wave. The 44 and even the 41 to a lesser degree has a flash bang grenade effect. The shooter can even feel the pressure wave with them. That's one reason I seldom shoot the full bore mag loads in the bigger bores. Recoil isn't all that bad. My wife's favorite was a Superblackhawk... But she didn't like factory loads. She's still PO'd I sold it...but she does like the 45 BH in Colt but said in 45 auto wasn't as much fun. The 125s out of the 27 are visually impressive but nowhere near as much as the larger bores . I do have a 4 5/8 inch BH in 357/9mm that is impressive with the 110s and 125s. Even the 110gr 38+P is pretty loud in it. Never shot it at night though. I bought 15 boxes of 110 and 125s at a gun show a couple of years ago for cheap and still have about 1/2 left. The110s shoot OK but the 125s are very accurate in that ol BH. You even feel a pressure wave with the110s.

Have to admit I hate to shoot the 454 Casull...or one of John Linebaugh's calibers. Shot em but don't need one

 

[Shoebox1.1]

This was the Hornady 125 grain XTP American Gunner load.
Pretty dang fast. Out of a 4 5/8 barrel, it was getting 1540.
I prefer heavier for caliber bullets but had just acquired a 686 and wanted something other than .38 Special to try so I bought a box.
Once I gathered dies and components, I've stuck to 158 and 180 gr. bullets.
Those I carry when up in the national forest for 4 legged critters.

For anti personnel, I've been carrying the Remington 125 scalloped HP but in .38 +P.
Super accurate out of the 66-8 as well, and with my vet discount they were $31 per box of 50.
I haven't chronographed them yet but they are not wimpy, and for sure much faster to get back on target than a 1500 fps. load.

I chose a military career while my older brother chose law enforcement.
Not too long into his career he had an encounter where he killed a guy, using his M66 and the Remington 125 grain load being discussed here.

He was on the SWAT team at the time, also training for the National Police championships coming up. He ended up winning the Nationals that year in the 70's, so yes he was a good shot.

He kept his SWAT gear in a duffel bag in the back of his Corvette which was parked in a well lit parking lot just below his apartment. There was a folding stock 870 in the bag with a full magazine of buck, chamber empty.

He had just got out of the shower when he heard glass breaking in the parking lot, grabbed the M66 and walked out onto the patio.
He saw a guy reaching into the back of the car, and he yelled "Halt Police"!
The guy was already in the gear bag and came up with the 870, racking a shell.

As he was raising the shotgun, my brother fired the first round at him, but he was turning and autopsy showed the 125 gr. blew up on the guys upper arm bone and did not reach the chest.
Not to worry, more were headed his way, and the autopsy showed that the guys heart was pretty much non-existent.
Shredded into nothing.
The guy was in no shape to do further damage but he managed to crawl 75 feet still clutching the shotgun before he died.
Autopsy also showed that the guy had a lot of PCP in him.

Funny you mention the hornady American gunner 125 XTP.. that's what's in my magnum revolvers.. I couldn't remember the specs and looked it up today.. 1500fps at 624ft lbs.. i only bought it due was all they had on the shelf at the time. It's going to stay for the time being. Underwood makes the same round but says 1700fps/800lbs from 4.5 inch! About a dollar a pop but that's fine

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Hornady sells the 125 XTP as a reloading component so I make my own .357 Magnums.

 

[rwsmith]

In the old days....

....when I loaded my own SD ammo (until the law got so picky) I loaded SWCHPs but they were, I think 158 grains. Back when hollow points weren't as reliable as they are today, I felt pretty good with this load.

 

[The Mighty S&W]

Being completely honest, the .357 Magnum seems to be heavily impacted by velocity loss in shorter barrels. So, when you see a box that says it will do XX velocity, that is usually going to be from a 6 inch (or sometimes, even longer) barrel, and the velocity quickly goes down as barrel length is reduced. My usual carry gun is a 2.5 inch 66-3 and I carry 158 grain Federal Hydra-Shok ammo in it. Realistically, it's more or less a 6 shot, really hot 9mm that makes a ton of noise, puts off a lot of flash, and kicks like a mule…But, I like it.

The one thing that I believe really gives the .357 Magnum its performance edge over the modern JHP ammo available in 9mm, is the exposed lead nose on the .357 Magnum loads. That exposed lead is soft, and also allows for a slightly larger opening at the front of the projectile, both of which help the bullet to expand quickly and deliver energy on target. Because of the mechanical operation of a semiauto pistol, the 9mm loads are jacketed completely with copper, and also have smaller hollow point cavities to help with reliable feeding. Both of those things hinder the ability of the projectiles to do their job upon impact.

When it comes to the old 125 grain loads, they certainly earned their reputation as a man stopper, but I believe there are plenty of other offerings today that match or exceed their real world performance. Rather than seeking out the load that appears on paper to be "the best", I think it wise to seek out the load that shoots well for you out of your gun. Keep in mind that in the real world, not everybody stops when shot, and things like how well you can place a second or third or fourth shot on target are going to be far more important than an extra 50fps at the muzzle. We're not talking about guns that are barely adequate here, where a minute difference in performance is likely to mean the difference between stopping a threat or not. The .357 Magnum is a potent, proven fight stopper. Selecting ammunition that you can use effectively in your gun is going to be of far greater importance to the outcome of any situation you might face than whether you go with a 125 or a 158/Federal vs Remington/etc.

 

[desmobob]

I used to love shooting those loads or similar handloads in my 66-2 before I learned they weren't good for it.

With the 125gr. over a healthy load of H110 powder,, I had always wondered if the muzzle blast would stop the bad guys, even if you missed with the bullet...

 

[koz5614]

When I was assigned to our range to assist with our qualifications, I had time to chrono some ammo through my back-up guns. I posted this back in 2014, but figure it's worth another read:

After reading all the debates about .357 vs .38 out of snub nose revolvers, I wanted to test my own ammo. My wife got me a Chrono for my birthday, and today I got a chance to put some numbers up. I was pretty psyched.
I shot five shot strings from 10' away from the sky screen. Weather was overcast and in the mid 70's. Here's what I got:

-110gr JHP Winchester +P .38Spl out of my 640 got an avg. of 876fps with a ME of 187ft lbs
-125gr Federal SJHP from my 640-1 Carry Comp avg 1250fps / 433ft lbs

The same loads out of my 66-4 Carry Comp avg 1305fps / 472ft lbs
158gr American Eagle JSPs in the 66-4 avg 1156fps / 468ft lbs

I also got to shoot my 940PC. After reading the forums, I became a big fan of carrying a 9mm back up revolver.
Speer 124GDHP avg 1045fps / 300ft lbs
Federal Match .356TSW 147gr avg 1100fps / 394ft lbs
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP avg 1230fps / 419ft lbs. Impressive numbers, but I had problems with the bullets pulling forward under recoil. Maybe I just got a bad batch, but I won't be be depending on them for off-duty.

I was a little surprised at the .38 Spl. I'd like to try some 125gr +P and see what it nets.
I was happy with the 9mm GDHPs in the 940. The same round in our duty guns nets 1144fps / 360ft lbs.
The Federal SJHP generated some big numbers; better than I anticipated even out of the 2-1/8" barrel. So much for the .357 being a waste in a snubbie.
I'd like to try the same tests on a nicer day and see if my results are a lot different. Next, I'm going to try some Federal 158 JHPs and some .38 Silvertips along with some 125gr +Ps.
Hopefully, this data proves helpful to somebody; it was an eye-opener for me.

 

[The Mighty S&W]

When I was assigned to our range to assist with our qualifications, I had time to chrono some ammo through my back-up guns. I posted this back in 2014, but figure it's worth another read:

After reading all the debates about .357 vs .38 out of snub nose revolvers, I wanted to test my own ammo. My wife got me a Chrono for my birthday, and today I got a chance to put some numbers up. I was pretty psyched.
I shot five shot strings from 10' away from the sky screen. Weather was overcast and in the mid 70's. Here's what I got:

-110gr JHP Winchester +P .38Spl out of my 640 got an avg. of 876fps with a ME of 187ft lbs
-125gr Federal SJHP from my 640-1 Carry Comp avg 1250fps / 433ft lbs

The same loads out of my 66-4 Carry Comp avg 1305fps / 472ft lbs
158gr American Eagle JSPs in the 66-4 avg 1156fps / 468ft lbs

I also got to shoot my 940PC. After reading the forums, I became a big fan of carrying a 9mm back up revolver.
Speer 124GDHP avg 1045fps / 300ft lbs
Federal Match .356TSW 147gr avg 1100fps / 394ft lbs
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP avg 1230fps / 419ft lbs. Impressive numbers, but I had problems with the bullets pulling forward under recoil. Maybe I just got a bad batch, but I won't be be depending on them for off-duty.

I was a little surprised at the .38 Spl. I'd like to try some 125gr +P and see what it nets.
I was happy with the 9mm GDHPs in the 940. The same round in our duty guns nets 1144fps / 360ft lbs.
The Federal SJHP generated some big numbers; better than I anticipated even out of the 2-1/8" barrel. So much for the .357 being a waste in a snubbie.
I'd like to try the same tests on a nicer day and see if my results are a lot different. Next, I'm going to try some Federal 158 JHPs and some .38 Silvertips along with some 125gr +Ps.
Hopefully, this data proves helpful to somebody; it was an eye-opener for me.

Yes, sir. The .357 Magnum loses velocity pretty quickly as barrel lengths go down, but not to the point that it isn't still a .357 Magnum. I think people worry too much about little details when they should be doing exactly what you did… firing their guns. You can buy all the guns in the world and load them with the greatest whiz bang ammo all you want to, but you've got to be able to shoot the darned thing in order for it to do you any good. A .357 Magnum is a serious cannon of a handgun, even with a short barrel.

 

[Shoebox1.1]

We all know and agree shot placement is king. In my opinion the old school rounds can be just as good as the modern wiz bangs. specifically talking about 4-5 inch revolvers I think we are much more well armed with ammunition of this type vs a sub compact 9mm the masses carry

 

[Bill Lear]

I have shot a lot of old 110 and 125 gr JHP loads from all makers, when I had a M19-5
and they were very accurate and something that I would not want to get in the way of.

I feel a lot better shooting them in my new 686 revolver, that was made to handle any 110 r 125 JHP made by any company, be they +P or +P+ 357 Magnums.

If six , full blown, 125 JHP will not put a BG down, he either has too many chemicals inside him or you
"Missed, by that much" .

A somewhat infamous case out of South Carolina some years back where a State Trooper had stopped a slimeball from Georgia. After a rather lengthy stop the Trooper finally revealed his true intent and asked to search the car (I-95 North is a common drug route), and the slimeball agreed to a search but then came the twist! The Trooper wanted to do a pat down and that's when it all broke loose. The guy resisted because he was carrying a NAA mini revolver in his front pocket. He and the Trooper scrambled and he was a larger than normal person who ended up "on top" and fished the mini out of his pocket, and delivered a single shot to the Trooper - you can't see that in the video. The Trooper of course realized it was all "do or die" kicked away, unholstered his .357 magnum and pumped no less than five rounds of 125 grain magnum loads into the miscreant who did in fact go down - falling out of frame of the Trooper's dash camera. The Trooper got to his feet and retreated to a safe position at the left front of the bad guy's car while calling for backup and help. Around 40 seconds later he was down, rapidly bleeding out from a single .22LR slug that made it past the vest arm opening and nicked an artery. Near the end of the video you can see the slimeball crawling back into frame on the right side, and lifting the silhouette of the mini revolver as if to get off another shot, though at this point the Trooper was fully immobilized.
The Trooper died at the scene, the scumbag survived all five hits, and underwent extensive surgeries to repair damage, being permanently disabled by the slugs, but still survived to begin serving a life sentence in prison from which he was allowed to give his biased account of how it all went down.
So yeah, five rounds of potent .357 magnum put the man down, unfortunately it failed to exact enough "justice" for an appropriate level of suffering - IMHO.

 

[Doug M.]

Said slime ball was pretty obese as I recall. There are very good reasons to train for failure drills and face shots.

There are other lessons there, too. Never do a search alone - it is not worth your life. He had not called out the stop before making it, either - the only reason anyone came to help (other than a passing trucker) is that another trooper had just driven by him. I knew of officers who got spanked for not calling/waiting for backup and things went a little sideways. It's a BFHD. In addition, the reason the opening was accessible is that he did not have a mike on his portable, so lifted his arm to use it. I refused to work without a corded mike and earpiece.

It was a combination of little things that all worked against the trooper.

Back to the ammo: the Remington SJHP was referred to as a "rose petal" back in the days. I knew cops who carried it. I had some. It was RANK. Lots of bark and flash.

 

[Shoebox1.1]

Terrible story about the trooper. That sucks. In Jim cirillo's book he tells a story of a large man of that description taking 10 rounds of 38 specials, several to the face iirc and walked out of the gunfight to the ambulance.

 

[Doug M.]

Pat Rogers had some similar accounts from his NYPD days. Bullets of virtually any configuration, velocity, etc., are rarely magic stoppers. They depend on proper targeting and cumulative damage/blood loss. One can of course improve their odds with research based choices, but placement is the first and most important issue.

Face: from the front, the triangle formed by the outer corner of each eye and the openings at the bottom of the nose, ABOVE the jaw. Body, from the front: a box formed by the inner edges of the torso/shoulders, with horizontal lines roughly at the level of the bottom of the throat and the bottom of the sternum. That area is well protected - those bones are tough. Take a good look at what it takes to crack a person open for cardiac surgery - I have been informed that I should be glad I was sedated extra long and never had them film the work as the actual access to the coronary arteries is pretty brutal.

 

[Skeet 028]

Have a mixed box of about 500 of the Rem SJHPs and Winchester 125 JHPs...Got 'em at an auction. I am surprised that the Remington bullets are more accurate. So I separated them. I also found a sealed red box of the Remington bullets in my stash of 357 cal bullets. There were 307 of the Remingtons so I now have 400 of them to reload. My favorite 357 jacketed bullet. Think we'll ever see them made again?? For the reloading market I mean...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Said slime ball was pretty obese as I recall. There are very good reasons to train for failure drills and face shots.

There are other lessons there, too. Never do a search alone - it is not worth your life. He had not called out the stop before making it, either - the only reason anyone came to help (other than a passing trucker) is that another trooper had just driven by him. I knew of officers who got spanked for not calling/waiting for backup and things went a little sideways. It's a BFHD. In addition, the reason the opening was accessible is that he did not have a mike on his portable, so lifted his arm to use it. I refused to work without a corded mike and earpiece.

It was a combination of little things that all worked against the trooper.

Back to the ammo: the Remington SJHP was referred to as a "rose petal" back in the days. I knew cops who carried it. I had some. It was RANK. Lots of bark and flash.

I did not hear of this, I'm sorry for the troopers family.

When a person injured or dies from a accidentally or negotiate discharge usually more than 1 or the 4 rules were broken.

When an officer get hurt or worse usually more than 1 of the SOP have been neglected. Much of the time it's not a big thing that gets you hurt, is the cumulative effects of a few or more small things that gets you.

And, many of us know it's not the bullet construction of caliber that's most important. You need to hit something important to stop an attack. We all have probably heard storied of small caliber shots killing.

A drunken husband beating his wife dies after his wife shot him only once with a 32 ACP. The bullet hit his heart where an artery connects and he bleed out quickly.

I personally know someone who was struck with 11 9mm SD rounds all in the chest area and lived. He was in intensive care for a month but now has no physical disabilities. (his head is a different story as you would think)

 

[koz5614]

That was the Trooper Mark Coates shooting. It was one of the first training videos we watched after graduating the Academy. One thing we were always confused about was exactly what type of ammunition he was carrying. If I recall, the narrator said something to the effect that Tpr Coates had carried a .357, but describes the suspect being shot with "Plus P" ammo. We suspected that his revolver may have been loaded with .38Spl. There were several local departments around here that were issued .357s, but you could carry .38Spl if you wanted.
When I graduated our Academy in 1997, our Firearms SOP indicated you could carry an approved .38/.357 snub nose revolver as a backup gun. HOWEVER, you could only carry .38 Spl ammunition. It has since been changed.
We were never able to get an answer as to what type of ammo Tpr. Coates was using, but we always wondered: if he did use .38s, would the extra couple 100 feet of MV and energy of the .357 get those bullets deep enough into suspect to destroy vital organs and cause enough blood loss to end the fight?

 

[Bill Lear]

Let's talk about the old 125 gr swchp round that is so famous. I believe the Remington model number is L357M1B. I'd like to carry this round in my 686 4 inch as a hat tip to the old days. They say 1400+ fps out this round, I'd assume that's 6 inch barrel? Any opinions or stories about this round and it's variants? I think I have some vintage fiocchi 38 specials in this configuration.

As a young man I grew up hand loading the 158 grain weight. then came the factory offered 125 grain to compensate for the predominance of short barrels.
These days my primary .357 carry choice is 158 grain. From a 4" barrel factory loads generally clock above 1,300 fps which is adequate, and the 28 grain heavier slug will go deeper and even pass through which is my personal goal.