Remington FBI Load .38 Spl+p LHP real world Performance in Snub

[Naphtali]

One procedure that I understand is designed into nearly all self-defense training for semiautomatic pistols is what is phrased as "double tap." Having used only revolvers and not having participated in any formal self-defense training program, I am not certain I am correct in describing double tap as [in self-defense situation] firing two nearly simultaneous targeted shots when shooter achieves his desired sight picture.

If I described it accurately, this is the way marginally adequate semiautomatic pistol self-defense ammunition metamorphoses to adequacy? Wouldn't this double tap procedure achieve similar result with 38 Special ammunition?

 

[Doug.38PR]

The Remington version is the one I’ve been using for over 10 years now.

I have a box of Buffalo Bore+p of the same load but I reserve it for a backup load in my 4 inch guns. I get about 1185 ft per second out if a 4 inch. Has a pretty hard recoil, which I don’t mind for my Colt OP or SW M15 4 inch or even M10 2 inch being a K frame but I don’t want to load that in my Detective Special.

I too have 300 of Hornandy LHP 158 gr. Out of 4 inch, I get about 950 ft per second with 5.2 gr of Unique. About the same as Remington FBI Load. But I’m hesitant to use reloads for self defense. Plus Unique velocityperformance isn’t as good as factory ammo out of snub nose revolvers

I just did a little speed test using my M10 2 inch snub. Loaded 5.2 gr of unique behind a Hornandy 158 gr LSWCHP. Shot several cylinder fulls. Highest speed was about 836ft per second lowest 775. On average about 825 ft per second.
I did put one round with 5.4 gr of unique and that clocked 863 ft per second.

(I did find an old Corbon 110 gr +p load from about 12 years ago that screamed and kicked out of that little barrel at 1257 ft per second...I was shocked. I was expecting a little over 1000 out of that little snub barrel)

In the coming weeks as things dry up on my land, I plan to try some of these loads on some wet old sandbags covered with some old torn up blue jeans or T shirts to see how they perform

 

[Bullseye 2620]

According to Chuck Hawkes, the old 158 grain LSWCHP +P load has a history of 65% "one shot stops," in actual police shootings as researched by Marshall and Sanow. The venerable 230 grain FMJ .45 Auto comes in at 63%. See: Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version.

There are lots of rounds that do better than this, especially the frangible Glaser rounds, but there are usually significant trade-offs involved such as muzzle flash, blast, and the ability to fire a second shot on-target within a reasonable length of time.

Given that shot placement is more important than caliber, I am perfectly comfortable with a Model 66 ND 2-1/2 inch revolver loaded with the so-called FBI load when I leave the house.

 

[dr. mordo]

The problem with all these threads is that they focus on the wrong aspect of a one-stop-shot. I've never drawn a gun in anger, but from everything I've read (including all the FBI research I've found) adequate penetration and shot placement are key.

Almost any caliber can penetrate enough to kill, as all the fatal shootings with .22 LR will testify to. The key is good shot placement. Hollow point bullets increase damage at the cost of penetration, but there is no substitute for good shot placement. I personally have no doubt that any .38 SPL round has adequate penetration to stop a bad guy if I put the bullet where it needs to go.

That said, I'm not a great shot so I carry a 629 loaded with hot .44 SPL JHPs to hedge my bets a bit.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

There have been a number of advances made in bullet construction and propellant powders over the past 25 years or so, including considerable attention to loads that improved performance in short-barreled revolvers.

That said, .38 and .357 magnum revolvers with barrels shorter than about 4" are seriously handicapped in actual ballistic performance. There is no getting around the facts; the shorter barrels will never deliver the velocities or energy levels to be expected from the same loads in longer barreled revolvers. Even with the specialized modern "short barrel" loads with highly efficient expanding bullet designs and powders optimized for shorter barrels the terminal performance is much less than 100% optimum. Just the nature of the beast; there is a very real compromise made when a snub-nosed revolver is chosen.

Now we can sit back and enjoy all the posts by those who truly believe they have discovered the perfect solution!

 

[Doug.38PR]

There have been a number of advances made in bullet construction and propellant powders over the past 25 years or so, including considerable attention to loads that improved performance in short-barreled revolvers.

That said, .38 and .357 magnum revolvers with barrels shorter than about 4" are seriously handicapped in actual ballistic performance. There is no getting around the facts; the shorter barrels will never deliver the velocities or energy levels to be expected from the same loads in longer barreled revolvers. Even with the specialized modern "short barrel" loads with highly efficient expanding bullet designs and powders optimized for shorter barrels the terminal performance is much less than 100% optimum. Just the nature of the beast; there is a very real compromise made when a snub-nosed revolver is chosen.

Now we can sit back and enjoy all the posts by those who truly believe they have discovered the perfect solution!

Well, speaking of bullet improvements, Buffalo Bore has actually inproved on the F.B.I. Load. They push it's velocities up to 1275, more or less, ft per second out of a 4 inch barrel (I have the actual chronograph records of my own gun that supports their claims) and supposedly gives 1000 ft per second, more or less, out of a 2 inch barrel. It basically takes the velocities up to the old .38-44 Hi Speed. With their speeds you can take a snubbie up to 4 inch normal factory velocities of Remington and Winchester. But it's virtually turning it into a low end .357 Magnum in power.

 

[Joe4d]

One procedure that I understand is designed into nearly all self-defense training for semiautomatic pistols is what is phrased as "double tap." Having used only revolvers and not having participated in any formal self-defense training program, I am not certain I am correct in describing double tap as [in self-defense situation] firing two nearly simultaneous targeted shots when shooter achieves his desired sight picture.

If I described it accurately, this is the way marginally adequate semiautomatic pistol self-defense ammunition metamorphoses to adequacy? Wouldn't this double tap procedure achieve similar result with 38 Special ammunition?

Sorry but I strongly disagree with this mind set. You shoot till the threat is eliminated.
Muscle memory YOU WILL do what you did in training under stress.
Im shooting targets to the ground. I see people all the time.. BANG BANG,,, pull gun back look at the target. Guess what they gonna do under stress ?

 

[old tanker]

One procedure that I understand is designed into nearly all self-defense training for semiautomatic pistols is what is phrased as "double tap." Having used only revolvers and not having participated in any formal self-defense training program, I am not certain I am correct in describing double tap as [in self-defense situation] firing two nearly simultaneous targeted shots when shooter achieves his desired sight picture.

If I described it accurately, this is the way marginally adequate semiautomatic pistol self-defense ammunition metamorphoses to adequacy? Wouldn't this double tap procedure achieve similar result with 38 Special ammunition?

I would speculate that high capacity and the semi-autos capability for a quick follow up shots led to "double tap" simply because it could be easily done. The technique certainly seemed more in vogue with the adoption of high capacity semi autos than it was when revolvers were standard issue.

 

[rwsmith]

Many perps today....

...are drugged up out of their heads and there are often more than one. It calls for better shooting and good ammo and also, enough firepower. I do trust my Chief's Specials for effectiveness with good ammo, but firepower is still wanting. My Shield holds 8 or 9 rounds, a faster bullet and a few more of them.

 

[one eye joe]

I carry Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P in my snub, but I would have no problem carrying some version of the FBI load, though my preference is for the standard pressure Buffalo Bore version (same velocity as the +P by other makers).

I CARRY THE SPEER, GOLD DOT, .38SPL+P, FOR SHORT BARRELS, IN MY SNUBS, AS WELL. ITS THE AMMO ISSUED, BY THE DEPARTMENT TO NYPD OFFICERS, WHO CARRY REVOLVERS. IT HAS PROVEN TO BE A RELIABLE, AND EFFECTIVE ROUND, TO THEIR SATISFACTION......

THAT'S ENOUGH OF AN ENDORSEMENT, TO WIN ME OVER......

 

[Walkingwolf]

Sorry but I strongly disagree with this mind set. You shoot till the threat is eliminated.
Muscle memory YOU WILL do what you did in training under stress.
Im shooting targets to the ground. I see people all the time.. BANG BANG,,, pull gun back look at the target. Guess what they gonna do under stress ?

I agree mag dumps with high capacity semi autos has always been so effective.(sarcasm)

Nothing says professionalism like shooting nine innocent bystanders(NYPD).

Double tap does not mean stop shooting completely, it means getting two quick rounds off then accessing whether more is needed. IMO that is preferred to throwing lead wildly.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

As an aside, as I am not a ballistics expert and have never shot anyone, although I do prefer heavy bullets I also carry mouseguns here and there, because any gun when you need it.....but let me tell you about a young Dallas police officer's gun with whom I served briefly in the Navy Reserve Intelligence Program.

He carried a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 25 in .45 Colt. I know this for a fact because he brought that gun with him on base (he had permission) and he showed it to me. Sometimes, after the end of a day on base he had to go on duty so I saw him in his DPD uniform with that big .45 on his belt. It took me decades before I acquired one like it - a grail gun for me - and if I could tote it around all day concealed that's the gun I would choose.

I mention it because I have no idea what the DPD gun rules were but in the late 1980s that's what he carried.

 

[jimmyj]

Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".

 

[SuperMan]

I would speculate that high capacity and the semi-autos capability for a quick follow up shots led to "double tap" simply because it could be easily done. The technique certainly seemed more in vogue with the adoption of high capacity semi autos than it was when revolvers were standard issue.

DT didn't evolve as some "combat technique" and if you look at the "REAL" shootouts on YouTube and LiveLeak I doubt you'll ever see one. This is a technique that came directly from IPSC competition to put two bullets anywhere on the target asap because your score was divided by your time and the faster your time the higher your score could be...Comstock Count.

Then a bunch of competitors who were not real combat shooters opened schools and started teaching this BS to the unknowing...but because they had the credentials of being top IPSC shooters the "unknowing" believed them...

I've seen IPSC and IDPA shooters who can't NOT DT...you give them a scenario where only one shot is allowed or required and they still fire two rounds...

...just a game...until you loose.

Bob

 

[SuperMan]

As an aside, as I am not a ballistics expert and have never shot anyone, although I do prefer heavy bullets I also carry mouseguns here and there, because any gun when you need it.....but let me tell you about a young Dallas police officer's gun with whom I served briefly in the Navy Reserve Intelligence Program.

He carried a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 25 in .45 Colt. I know this for a fact because he brought that gun with him on base (he had permission) and he showed it to me. Sometimes, after the end of a day on base he had to go on duty so I saw him in his DPD uniform with that big .45 on his belt. It took me decades before I acquired one like it - a grail gun for me - and if I could tote it around all day concealed that's the gun I would choose.

I mention it because I have no idea what the DPD gun rules were but in the late 1980s that's what he carried.

DPD officers were allowed to carry semis or revolvers in the calibers I listed above until the chief...Billy "The Clown" Prince decreed that semis were unreliable and dangerous and stopped us from carrying them in 1985/6 area. I left the Department in December 87. Prince was replaced a couple of years later. The new chief was from LA and brought the semi's back but eliminated all the large caliber revolvers, only .38s and .357s were allowed...and I believe factory ammo only, no more handloads...and no more SA semis...so no BHP or 1911s..

 

[jeeps]

Placement is gueen all else is what ever makes you feel better. A plain SWC in 158grn will get it done.

 

[one eye joe]

Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".

IN THEORY, AT LEAST, jimmyj.....

SEVERAL REPUTABLE STUDIES HAVE DETERMINED THAT THE MOST "ONE SHOT STOPS" ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE 125GR. .357 MAGNUM ROUND.....

JIM CIRILLO, FAMED GUNFIGHTER AND MEMBER OF THE NYPD'S "STAKE OUT SQUAD", SURVIVED COUNTLESS SHOOTOUTS, WHILE TERMINATING THE LIVES OF AT LEAST 11 CRIMINALS, IN THE COURSE OF HIS DUTIES. BECAUSE OF HIS STATURE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT, HE ENJOYED GREAT LATITUDE, IN HIS CHOICE OF ARMAMENT, BOTH WEAPON AND AMMO.....

OFFICER CIRILLO'S AMMO OF CHOICE WAS STANDARD PRESSURE, FULL WADCUTTER, .38 SPL LOADS, OF WHATEVER BRAND WAS IN CURRENT USE, FOR TRAINING PURPOSES, BY THE NYPD. THIS IS WHAT HE CARRIED IN HIS REVOLVER, AND WHAT HE STAKED HIS LIFE ON ! ! !

BUFFALO BORE NOW MAKES A SD LOAD, INSPIRED BY HIM.....

 

[jupiter1]

Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".

If it is better, just how much? No one really knows.

I've settled on .38 SWC. In my opinion, if something can fully penetrate and break a couple of bones on the way, it's sufficient no matter what the diameter.

 

[Old cop]

Having been “there” more than once all I can tell you is every situation is different so all this double tap & mag dump talk means little. One time I fired only one shot b/c it did the job, another I emptied my revolver twice b/c I was in a fight for my life and the last time three shots were needed to put the suspect down. The important thing is regular range time so that your skills don’t deminish.

 

[BB57]

IN THEORY, AT LEAST, jimmyj.....

SEVERAL REPUTABLE STUDIES HAVE DETERMINED THAT THE MOST "ONE SHOT STOPS" ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE 125GR. .357 MAGNUM ROUND......

I more or less agree, although I'd word it differently.

Even if you argue about methodology and whether the .357 Magnum's percentages are really higher (around 94-96% for the best .357 Magnum loads compared to around 90-95% for the best .45 ACP loads, 90 to 94% for the best .40 S&W loads, 90-92% for the best .44 Mag loads, 90% for the best 9mm loads, and 90% for the best .41 Mag load), it's safe to say that while some may do as well, nothing does the job better than the .357 Magnum. It's in the sweet spot for a combination of terminal ballistics and controllability. In comparison the 2" 38 Special is in the 65% range and the best 4" .38 special load is right at 80%.

The relative performance of the .357 Mag is the same in the multiple hit data where the .357 Magnum, .40 S&W and .45 ACP all score in the 96-97% range. The .44 Mag interestingly is only 91%. The 2" .38 is still in the 65-67% range and the best 4" .38 load was only 84%.

In short, two things appear in the data:

1) There isn't much to choose from between the .357 Mag, .40 S&W and the .45 ACP; and

2) The .38 Special isn't in the same class, even with a 4" barrel and with a 2" barrel it takes a significant real world performance penalty.

If you plan to be effective with a snub nose .38 Special, bullet placement is extremely important, so you need to practice with it enough for the use of your sights to be second nature, and enough to be both fast and accurate. Speed and accuracy have to carry the day, because you're short on the power side of the triangle.