Replacement for M&P line?

[Rastoff]

The 1911 is 17.5 grip angle and will never be improved. M & P smartly came in at 18 degrees. Glock, trying to be different, produced at 21 degrees and is a nature 'high' shooter. Glock (manufactured by non-American scale machine tolerances) is a dependable bullet chunker.

There has been much ballyhoo over the grip angle on the Glock. I believe it was intentional by Gaston. I think he made that grip angle because he knows the vast majority of shooters tend to shoot low due to pressing the gun forward in an attempt to force the gun to shoot. I think he tried to compensate for that with a greater grip angle.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[DD357]

Take a couple M&P 9's and a couple Walther PPQ's and try the trigger and you will see a big difference. Next, get some 147 grain FMJ flat point American Eagle ammo and do a 25 yard bench rest group test. Both guns are about the same price. I did just this and was amazed at how much better the trigger is and smaller the group sizes are with the PPQ. The grip is also a much better fit.

Agreed, the only thing I will say is the PPQ bounces a bit more.

 

[old-school]

The M& P line is directed at two groups of shooters, target shooter and Concealed Carry shooters. As a Concealed Carry shooter I am concern on how the weapon shoots at approx. 21 ft. (if the target is farer than 21 ft away-I need to be running the other way).With the sell of the M&P shield I think the Concealed Carry shooter is a major part of the business.

 

[Fastbolt]

Anyone know if S&W is developing a new line to replace the M&P? The M&P line is approaching 12 years old. I was curious if anyone heard any credible or non-credible info about any new line?

The impression I get is ... No.

There will continue to be ongoing refinements and revisions to the M&P pistol line.

Perhaps I'll hear something else in my next (5th, I think?) M&P pistol armorer class.

The M&P pistol line is only 10 years old, having been officially launched in Jan '06, so it's not exactly getting "too old".

 

[cardguy]

When S & W develops a trigger as good as the Walther PPQ, then they will have a great gun in high demand.

 

[Gearhead36]

When S & W develops a trigger as good as the Walther PPQ, then they will have a great gun in high demand.

S&W already has a gun in high demand. The PPQ is priced in line with the M&P Pro. How do those triggers compare? Agree that the "standard" trigger is nothing to write home about. Out of the box, it pretty much sucks, but that is easily remedied. How well does the PPQ point? How does it shoot? How well does it manage recoil? These are the areas that the M&P shines, IMO. It's hard to fix a high bore axis. It's hard to fix grip angle. Triggers can be fixed. Quite easily. Both are good guns. IMO, though, the M&P has a better combination of features.

 

[Kanewpadle]

When S & W develops a trigger as good as the Walther PPQ, then they will have a great gun in high demand.

Agreed. I've owned 7 or 8 M&P's and went back to Glock. Tired of spending money tying to fix gritty, stacking triggers.

S&W needs to do better. And don't tell me it can't be done or it's fine the way it is. It isn't.

Here is a polymer framed striker fired gun that cost at least $150 less and the trigger is MUCH better than any stock M&P.

Canik TP9SA

 

[peterthefish]

Agreed. I've owned 7 or 8 M&P's and went back to Glock. Tired of spending money tying to fix gritty, stacking triggers.



S&W needs to do better. And don't tell me it can't be done or it's fine the way it is. It isn't.



Here is a polymer framed striker fired gun that cost at least $150 less and the trigger is MUCH better than any stock M&P.

Canik TP9SA

Because they ripped off Walther's design. S&W used to make the SW99 - an ugly gun that I didn't enjoy shooting that used the same trigger design as the P99 which is a DA/SA version of the PPQ trigger. I believe those frames and internals came from Walther but the design patent on the trigger has since expired (see the Canik) - I'm surprised more manufacturers aren't ripping it off.

 

[Fastbolt]

Agreed. I've owned 7 or 8 M&P's and went back to Glock. Tired of spending money tying to fix gritty, stacking triggers.

S&W needs to do better. And don't tell me it can't be done or it's fine the way it is. It isn't.

Here is a polymer framed striker fired gun that cost at least $150 less and the trigger is MUCH better than any stock M&P.

Canik TP9SA

I've always liked the P99 series, myself. Once I'd taken my first SW99/P99 armorer class (first of 3 of them for the 99 series when the SW99/990L was in production), I ordered a SW9940 and then later a SW999c. I also carried an issued SW9940 for a few years, too. Nice gun.

My SW999c is a favorite because of its great trigger and willingness to run any of the assorted JHP duty loads I've sued over the years. Its practical accuracy is easily on a par with any of my well-used 3rd gen S&W TDA guns, and is enjoyable to run for accuracy out to 50+yds. I also like how the grip feels like it's a thin single stack, even though it uses double stack 10-rd mags.

I never tried one of the Magnum Research 99 clones (Walther-supplied frames, I believe, like the SW99's). Don't know anything about the Turkish-made Canik TP series, but they seem to be somewhat popular among enthusiasts.

I tried one of the other instructor's M&P 9 Pro 5" model, and it has a surprisingly outstanding trigger. Really light and smooth. Real tack-driver. The fellow carries it as a duty weapon. The trigger on that one was even better, right out of the box, than the M&P 9's he owns which have received aftermarket sear kits (range guns), interestingly enough.

I don't mind the Glocks for "working" guns. I own 3 of them and I'm scheduled for my 5th armorer class for Glocks later this Fall.

Lots of competition to be found in the plastic duty gun genre, and Glock is going to have to keep abreast of the demand for increasingly (reasonably) better plastic guns as the market continues to evolve.

Not bad for us consumers.

 

[cardguy]

I lucked out with my M&P 9Pro. A very good trigger and a defective barrel. But one trip back to the factory changed that. They gave the gun a very good, accurate barrel. I'm happy with the gun now.

 

[molonlabe]

Smith is considered the top candidate to get the new Army and Air Force contract so it is very unlikely they will be changing anything.

More likely will be commercial versions of the model the military does approve.

 

[chipper]

I just wish they'd make M&P's in 10mm. I'd be all l over a 10mm shield.

 

[TacticalReload]

I'm shocked that so few people here were aware of the idea that a "gen2" of the M&P might be in the works. There have been grumblings of it online forever. Of course, who knows when/if it will materialize.

As for the trigger, it's not great; but these are striker fired plastic guns, which don't have 1911-type triggers. Some people think other brands of striker guns (ie, Glock) are great... those people are calling the kettle black.

As for accuracy, I've posted at length about my feelings on the matter as it pertains to the full sized 9mm guns. Of the examples I've owned and/or shot, only one was very good while two were quite bad (one was absolutely horrid and it was the most expensive one).

I will never buy into this "defensive pistols for use at defensive distance" as anything but an excuse for a lack of willingness to improve marksmanship. People who don't push the target back tend to be the people who couldn't hit it if they did... and the reason they can't is because they never push the target back. It's a nasty circle... practice makes perfect and in this day and age of active shooter *** terrorists, I can think of a circumstance or three where you might want to redefine "acceptable engagement distances".

If I can't use a particular pistol to at least hit a man-sized target at 25 yards in a static range with perfect lighting with no stress or adrenaline when I'm standing still with perfect posture and perfect grip and all the time in the world... well, I'm not sure what happens if something horrific happens and I need to take those shots in the dark from my back with my heart racing and hands shaking from adrenaline and shock, even if the distance is half or a quarter or less than that. Aim small, miss small. Plugging away for hits somewhere in the torso from near contact distances during practice and you're short changing yourself big time.

At the very least, if your personal mental and emotional constitution allows it (and it's understandable if it doesn't because it's morbid and often hard to watch), maybe search around for CCTV footage of actual shootings and see what happens in "real life". I believe there is a guy on youtube who has a channel devoted to it. For example, when you see a guy take multiple hits center mass from an AK and still return fatal fire with a pistol, you'll learn quickly that it's not like you think it is. It's ugly and handguns rarely work fast enough to always ensure that the good guy wins with out some luck and proper training. I know it's convinced me to put away the tiny, low-capacity pocket guns and start carrying something more "appropriate".

Of course, now I've strayed so far off topic as to be irrelevant to the OP's question... so I'll just say, "Yes, I think that S&W will ultimately revise the M&P line." Who knows when, but it'll probably be more evolutionary than revolutionary. At the very least, the military specs call for stringent accuracy requirements, which might require some tweaking of the design, IMO.

 

[TacticalReload]

Smith is considered the top candidate to get the new Army and Air Force contract so it is very unlikely they will be changing anything.

More likely will be commercial versions of the model the military does approve.

On the Glock forums, they say that the Glock 17/19 is the top candidate... especially after the news of the FBI contract award recently. On the SIG forums, they say that the P320 is the top candidate. (I don't frequent the Ruger forum so who knows what they say.) Beretta still thinks the APX is a winner. I figure FN probably feels like they make an appropriate pistol.

Most likely, the military will scrap the idea and just keep the M9 for another however long and then ask for a new pistol design again. It seems to be a pattern with them.

 

[fjweems3]

Silly me. Every time I hear or see "M&P" I think of the pre Model 10.

I have one of those pre Model 10's....

 

[TexasRaider]

Silly me. Every time I hear or see "M&P" I think of the pre Model 10.

Me too. And I prefer it over the 'new' model 10,000 to 1.