Replacing the cylinder stop spring

[Mike_Fontenot]

I want to replace the stock cylinder stop spring on my Model 69 .44mag L-Frame with a stiffer spring from Wolff. What is the way to do that with minimum removal of other parts?

 

[chief38]

Remove Cylinder and after removing the Side-plate you will need to remove the Hammer Block Safety, Rebound Slide & Spring, Trigger and Hand (Hand can stay on Trigger). Then you can use a tweezer or thin Needle Nosed Pliers to gently pull out the Cylinder Stop & Spring. Replace in revers order.

If you know what you are doing this is a 15 minute job. Just out of curiosity WHY are you replacing the CS Spring in the first place? It's VERY RARE I have seen one fail although I have seen one break in half.

If the reason is that the CS is not reliably engaging the Cylinder Notches then I suspect you might have a burr that is hindering the engagement OR the CS was never fit properly. In either case - not a big deal to remedy with a small Extra Fine Arkansas Stone. Replacing the Spring alone will probably not fix this if in fact that is the issue.

 

[Hondo44]

I agree with chief38 above, it's very uncommon for that spring to be replaced especially with a stronger one. It'll contribute to a deep cylinder stop 'track' around the cylinder. You maybe treating a symptom of another problem.

I've usually been able to remove and replace the spring just by removing the side plate. Use a large zip lock bag to work inside of in case the spring gets away from you while compressing it into position.

My Model 69 functions perfectly with the standard spring.

If you haven't removed a side plate before, remember to use only gravity to get it to come out by tapping the grip frame.

 

[chief38]

This might help. The only real difference is this very old Revolver sketch shows a Cylinder Stop screw and spring that is serviced from the outside of the guns Frame, where as yours will have no access screw on the Frame and must be serviced from the inside. I am just using this picture as a reference to the parts. Click to enlarge the picture.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Remove Cylinder and after removing the Side-plate you will need to remove the Hammer Block Safety, Rebound Slide & Spring, Trigger and Hand (Hand can stay on Trigger).

So the hammer doesn't have to be removed before the trigger?

Just out of curiosity WHY are you replacing the CS Spring in the first place?

Last range trip, I shot more full-spec Underwood 240gr JHP's than I have ever shot before (20 rounds total, 4 groups of 5 rounds in my Model 69 .44mag). The most Underwoods that I had ever shot in a row before was 5, on the previous range trip, and with no problems. (I usually start with low powered ammo, and slowly work up in power to the Underwoods, and only shoot one or two of them). This time, I got some failures that I've never gotten before ... sometimes some clicks when there should have been a bang. (Out of the four groups of 5 rounds fired, there were some clicks in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th groups, but no failures in the 3rd group). I finally came to suspect that the cylinder stop was sometimes being inertially pulled down due to the very heavy recoil, and allowing the cylinder to rotate CCW (viewed from behind) at least one hole-position, thus skipping over at least the next live round, and sometimes moving an already fired casing into the next firing position, thus causing the unexpected click on the next (SA) trigger pull. (I also noticed that the 5 spent casings were very hard to eject, much harder than with the 5 Underwoods in the last range trip, so I'm suspecting that these latest rounds were hotter than before). I didn't have any lower powered ammo to shoot this time, so I couldn't confirm my suspicion that the problem wouldn't occur with lower powered ammo. I'll do that experiment the next range trip.

So, assuming my diagnosis is correct, the stiffer cylinder stop spring from Wolff should solve my problem. (In addition to the very high power of the Underwood ammo, I suspect that the fact that I like to use a very light grip contributes to the amount of recoil and muzzle rise that causes the inertial pull down of the cylinder stop).

If, after installing the stiffer spring, I find the problem hasn't gone away, then I'll know that there is some other cause of the problem.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I've usually been able to remove and replace the spring just by removing the side plate.

Can you elaborate on how to do that? I would REALLY like to avoid taking out any other parts if I can, so I'd like to use your method if possible. I assume that the trigger is putting some pressure on the cylinder stop, so do you need to do anything to relieve that pressure before trying to remove the cylinder stop?

I have had previous (successful) experience replacing the hammer spring, and the trigger rebound spring. But I've never had to remove anything else (other than the sideplate and firing pin safety, of course), so it's a bit scary to me.

Use a large zip lock bag to work inside of in case the spring gets away from you while compressing it into position.

Good tip ... I haven't heard that before.

My Model 69 functions perfectly with the standard spring.

Have you shot many Underwood 240gr JHP's? My 69 has worked fine with everything else, and has even worked fine with the lighter bullet Underwoods (180gr and 200gr), and has worked OK with a single previous group of 5 UW 240gr JHP's. And it may be that, even with the UW 240gr JHP's, that a firm grip might keep the problem from occurring, due to less muzzle rise ... but I don't like using a firm grip.

 

[chief38]

If you want to remove Hammer pull back on Trigger a little bit until the nose is clear. Keep a little pressure on the Trigger and wiggle Hammer out - takes 2 seconds.

 

[jimmyj]

Order a dozen ! The first few will fly away never to be seen again.
It helps to know the correct obscene words to use when tiny gun parts disappear after or before bouncing off your face/forehead.

 

[OldChief]

To answer your question above, yes, the hammer comes out before the trigger. As soon as I can get them, I'm going to replace the locking bolt and cylinder stop springs on my .22/32 (1925) revolver in order to tighten things up a bit. The big difference here is that this is a very old and much used revolver. Unless the cylinder stop spring is broken on your model 69, I surprised that it needs to be replaced. Has your 69 been used a lot? Anyway, good luck with your project and remember, you can always consult a good smith.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

If you want to remove Hammer pull back on Trigger a little bit until the nose is clear. Keep a little pressure on the Trigger and wiggle Hammer out - takes 2 seconds.

But it still sounds like you're saying that it isn't NECESSARY to remove the hammer, only the trigger rebound slide and the trigger (and attached hand). Is that correct? And if so, does the trigger (and attached hand) just come right up, or is there some force on it by some other part (like the hammer, or the cylinder stop) that needs to first be relieved somehow?

 

[armorer951]

You don't have to remove the hammer. Remove the cylinder and yoke and set aside, loosen the mainspring strain screw a couple of turns if needed to relieve the pressure on the hammer. (this is not necessary, just makes the rebound slide easier to remove) Remove the rebound slide and spring. Keep a cleaning patch or small pad under your thumb on top of the rebound frame stud/post, so the spring doesn't take a hike, or damage your thumb. While holding the hand out of the hand slot, carefully lift out the hand trigger assy by using upward pressure on the trigger body, not the hand. Set aside the trigger lever which will likely fall out of the trigger when it is removed. Rotate the cylinder stop down out of the frame window and remove.

I can send a short video if you need one....or just Google it.

 

[Hondo44]

Mike,

I think you should confirm your theory at the range about skipping a chamber and the hammer landing on the next already fired cartridge before changing parts.

The issue sounds like a parts fitting or timing problem. I'd focus on that first. Have you used a magic marker to check the depth and centering of the cyl bolt engagement in the cyl notches?

Why do you need to shoot Underwoods in the 69? I wouldn't shoot anything that's hard to extract, it's a sign of maximum or excess pressure.
Are your primers cratering?

Your theory describes a problem that older Model 29s experienced on (pre 29-3) shot a lot with heavy mag loads. It was giving S&W's 44 Mag revolver a bad name. Their solution starting with the 29-3E was their "Endurance Package" which became standard on all Mod 29s/629s. And later, deeper cyl notches.

Remember your 69 is on the smaller L frame. If you want to push performance to the limit, I'd use a full size 44 mag revolver designed for it.

You might want to call S&W and discuss it with them.

 

[iPac]

Mike,

I think you should confirm your theory at the range about skipping a chamber and the hammer landing on the next already fired cartridge before changing parts.

The issue sounds like a parts fitting or timing problem. I'd focus on that first. Have you used a magic marker to check the depth and centering of the cyl bolt engagement in the cyl notches?

Why do you need to shoot Underwoods in the 69? I wouldn't shoot anything that's hard to extract, it's a sign of maximum or excess pressure.
Are your primers cratering?

Your theory describes a problem that older Model 29s experienced on (pre 29-3) shot a lot with heavy mag loads. It was giving S&W's 44 Mag revolver a bad name. Their solution starting with the 29-3E was their "Endurance Package" which became standard on all Mod 29s/629s. And later, deeper cyl notches.

Remember your 69 is on the smaller L frame. If you want to push performance to the limit, I'd use a full size 44 mag revolver designed for it.

You might want to call S&W and discuss it with them.

All good thinking. If you don't have good revolver expertise, it could be anything, and trying to solve what one thinks it "is" probably isn't the answer.

I would have my doubts of the L frame 44mag handling a bunch of stout loads like Underwood and BB.

 

[ken158]

Don’t take this wrong... but if you can’t remove the hammer, which takes a second, I would suggest you get someone with experience to replace the cylinder stop spring... but as others have noted, i doubt that is your problem. You are shooting some very high pressure ammo designed for a N frame in a L frame - better yet, maybe designed for a Much stronger Ruger 44.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Mike,

I think you should confirm your theory at the range about skipping a chamber and the hammer landing on the next already fired cartridge before changing parts.

I'm sure about the just-fired casing sometimes ending up shifted CCW one or more cylinder holes from where it should be ... there's no doubt about that. I confirmed it multiple times. I also sometimes found the cylinder still free to rotate after taking the shot (and before cocking the hammer). That should never happen ... the cylinder stop should still be "up" and keeping the cylinder from rotating. So something is pulling the cylinder stop down during (or immediately after) the shot. I DID always confirm that the cylinder was locked right before I took the shot. But it somehow gets unlocked during or immediately after the shot, even though I haven't recocked the hammer. Since that never has happened with lighter loads, it seems very likely that it has something to do with the heavy recoil, and the only way I can see that happening is if the cylinder stop is being pulled down inertially by the heavy recoil (and made more likely by my relaxed grip, which allows more muzzle rise than with a firm grip).

I think it'll be after Thanksgiving when the new spring shows up, so I'm planning to go to the range Monday or Tuesday, and shoot some UW 240's again to confirm the problem is still there, and then shoot some lighter loads, to see if the problem doesn't occur in that case. If so, then I'll try the stiffer spring, and repeat the test with the UW 240's the following range visit. If it doesn't solve the problem, I can always restore the stock spring, and pursue other possible solutions (including shooting Hornady's instead of Underwood's).

Why do you need to shoot Underwoods in the 69? I wouldn't shoot anything that's hard to extract, it's a sign of maximum or excess pressure.
Are your primers cratering?

No primer flow. And I haven't had the very difficult extraction before with the UW 240's, so that's why I think some of the ammo in that box is hotter than the rest. That ammo is 3 or 4 years old, so as soon as Underwood offers the next free shipping deal, I'm going to get some more, and see if he's toned it down a little bit ... I've heard that he has.

But the most important question I have now is, can you confirm for me that you've been able to remove and reinstall the cylinder stop without taking any other parts out? And if so, can you elaborate a bit about how you did that? I.e., was it necessary to relieve some pressure on the cylinder stop, and if so, how did you do that? That information would be very helpful to me.

 

[Dieseltech56]

I can't even imagine why you would want to shoot the hottest ammo alive in a 69. I would try shooting some regular loads in it and see if it still happens and if you must shoot atomic loads perhaps get some factory S&W 500 grips.

Only one time did my 69 counter rotate and it was while I had small bantam grips on the gun. I suspect it was more from me not controlling the recoil properly rather than a issue with the actual gun.

 

[chief38]

The Hammer does not need to be removed and that is why I did not post so in my original answer. I did state in the follow up post that you can (if desired) remove it in about 2 seconds (may make things easier and certainly not a big deal). If this were my gun I'd remove the whole works and clean the gun while I'm in there. You might as well. The only parts you will have not removed (and that is not a big deal either) is the Bolt and Bolt Spring. All you need to do is to remove the Thumb Latch (one nut with a slot) and pull back the bolt and lift up with a tweezer. Watch out the small spring and plunger don't go flying. Now you will have stripped the entire gun down for a proper cleaning.

PS: Pull the Trigger partially back until the Hammer is clear - then pull the Hammer off. There is a "sweet spot" where it will come right out. When you remove the Cylinder Stop & Spring take your time, don't force anything and WATCH what you are doing. Some come out right away and some have to be "finessed" out. Fear not, it WILL come out. When reinstalling the new spring, it may help to use a knife blade to finesse the spring back in.

When you reassemble, resist the temptation to dry fire the gun without having the Side Plate on, as you can chip the Frame when the Hammer moves outward on the Stud. When reinstalling the Hammer Block, keep in the upward position and slide the Side Plate up and in. Squeeze Side Plate back on evenly and seat with all 3 screws. Then take the front screw out again so you can insert the Cylinder and Yoke assembly. I would use a light Lube like Rig #2 Oil or Remoil sparingly on the pivot points and sliding areas. I like using a light viscosity oil inside a Revolver that will NOT gum up and collect dust.

 

[CapnMic]

Hope I don't muddy the water, but this skipping a cylinder has me thinking it is a "timing" problem .. does this always happen on the same cylinder? or is random? The reason I ask is because the hand is responsible for pushing on the tooth of each dedicated cylinder and sometimes there is some wear on a particular "tooth" (that raised area that sits between each cylinder that is subject to wear from the hand pushing on it .. and if a revolver is quickly fired that timing has to keep up with the cylinder rotation. Now, I am certainly not a gunsmith but I've been studying the interaction between the cylinder rotation as a matter of curiosity and when someone manipulates the trigger incorrectly, they can cause the cylinder stop to stay down momentarily and it may be the momentum of quick shooting without full reset of the trigger that contributes to this issue.. Guess I'll sit back and let the other guys chime in .. because I'm interested too if I am understanding this problem.

 

[Hondo44]

I'm sure about the just-fired casing sometimes ending up shifted CCW one or more cylinder holes from where it should be ... there's no doubt about that. I confirmed it multiple times. I also sometimes found the cylinder still free to rotate after taking the shot (and before cocking the hammer). That should never happen ... the cylinder stop should still be "up" and keeping the cylinder from rotating. So something is pulling the cylinder stop down during (or immediately after) the shot. I DID always confirm that the cylinder was locked right before I took the shot. But it somehow gets unlocked during or immediately after the shot, even though I haven't recocked the hammer. Since that never has happened with lighter loads, it seems very likely that it has something to do with the heavy recoil, and the only way I can see that happening is if the cylinder stop is being pulled down inertially by the heavy recoil (and made more likely by my relaxed grip, which allows more muzzle rise than with a firm grip).

I think it'll be after Thanksgiving when the new spring shows up, so I'm planning to go to the range Monday or Tuesday, and shoot some UW 240's again to confirm the problem is still there, and then shoot some lighter loads, to see if the problem doesn't occur in that case. If so, then I'll try the stiffer spring, and repeat the test with the UW 240's the following range visit. If it doesn't solve the problem, I can always restore the stock spring, and pursue other possible solutions (including shooting Hornady's instead of Underwood's).

No primer flow. And I haven't had the very difficult extraction before with the UW 240's, so that's why I think some of the ammo in that box is hotter than the rest. That ammo is 3 or 4 years old, so as soon as Underwood offers the next free shipping deal, I'm going to get some more, and see if he's toned it down a little bit ... I've heard that he has.

But the most important question I have now is, can you confirm for me that you've been able to remove and reinstall the cylinder stop without taking any other parts out? And if so, can you elaborate a bit about how you did that? I.e., was it necessary to relieve some pressure on the cylinder stop, and if so, how did you do that? That information would be very helpful to me.

Your describing exactly the problem with the 29 under very heavy recoil; Newton's law of physics. And the 69 is more susceptible because it's a lighter gun than the 29. Under heavy recoil with less resistance, i.e., weight, springs and movable parts no longer function properly. The heavier bolt spring may help. But I would still confirm proper fitting like full depth of bolt engagement in the centers of the cyl notches.

With side plate off, wedge trigger back a bit with a an eraser to take tension off of the cyl bolt. Don't remove the bolt. With a dental pick, pull one end or the other of the spring out, the bolt or the pocket in the frame. Replace spring by reversing that maneuver.

 

[Hondo44]

I can't even imagine why you would want to shoot the hottest ammo alive in a 69. I would try shooting some regular loads in it and see if it still happens and if you must shoot atomic loads perhaps get some factory S&W 500 grips.

Only one time did my 69 counter rotate and it was while I had small bantam grips on the gun. I suspect it was more from me not controlling the recoil properly rather than a issue with the actual gun.

I think you're right. I have the 500 grips, the Hogue Tamers on several Smiths, the 69 being one of them. But especially on my airweight 329! That gun will maim you w/o decent grips, especially with 300 gr bullet loads.