Replacing the cylinder stop spring

[Mike_Fontenot]

What did the factory do/say?
Is the Underwood ammo over SAAMI spec pressure?

On the most recent trip to S&W, they replaced the hand, which has absolutely nothing to do with the problem ... I think it was just the only thing left that they knew how to replace.

I think Underwood is very good ammo. Right at full-spec, very little flash, and clean burning.

 

[H Richard]

I have seen the cylinder stop spring "bent" by improper installation, and that limited it's proper function. Usually removing, and if not permanently bent, re-installing correctly usually fixed the problem.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I have seen the cylinder stop spring "bent" by improper installation, and that limited it's proper function. Usually removing, and if not permanently bent, re-installing correctly usually fixed the problem.

Thanks for that info. It LOOKED OK to me after I installed the stiffer cylinder-stop spring, but maybe I did damage it while installing it, and maybe that's why I saw no improvement from the stiffer spring. I might try that again at some point ... I've still got some of the stiffer springs. I also may try stretching the spring some, before I install it, to try to increase the stiffness.

Does anyone know if the cylinder-stop spring in the X-Frames is the same diameter as the spring in the L-Frames and N-frames? If so, maybe it could be used in the 69??

 

[armorer951]

I believe the stop springs are the same.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I believe the stop springs are the same.

You mean, not any stiffer?

 

[armorer951]

Yes....the springs are the same part #.....spring tension is the same. I'm basing this on the parts listed at the Midway web site. They could be wrong.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Yes....the springs are the same part #.....spring tension is the same. I'm basing this on the parts listed at the Midway web site. They could be wrong.

Thanks for that info. It's odd that Wolff thinks the standard spring isn't strong enough, but that S&W apparently doesn't, even in the monster X-Frame guns. Even the extra-strength Wolff spring doesn't seem strong enough to me.

 

[jimmyj]

Long Story Short:
Replace all the after market springs/parts with the original factory springs and parts.
Now go the range and test the revolver.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Long Story Short:
Replace all the after market springs/parts with the original factory springs and parts.
Now go the range and test the revolver.

I did that last Thursday. With the factory parts, I couldn't make it misfire. But the cylinder WAS unlocking and rotating CCW during the recoil (as proven by the firing-pin scratches on the rear of the casing), which shouldn't be happening. But the amount of CCW rotation was small enough that it didn't cause a misfire.

What I really badly need to know is, does anyone else use a relaxed grip on his 69, and does he also get the firing-pin scratches? So far, no one who uses a relaxed grip has come forward.

 

[jimmyj]

I did that last Thursday. With the factory parts, I couldn't make it misfire. But the cylinder WAS unlocking and rotating CCW during the recoil (as proven by the firing-pin scratches on the rear of the casing), which shouldn't be happening. But the amount of CCW rotation was small enough that it didn't cause a misfire.

What I really badly need to know is, does anyone else use a relaxed grip on his 69, and does he also get the firing-pin scratches? So far, no one who uses a relaxed grip has come forward.

Have you checked the cylinder hand spring tension ?

 

[Hondo44]

I did that last Thursday. With the factory parts, I couldn't make it misfire. But the cylinder WAS unlocking and rotating CCW during the recoil (as proven by the firing-pin scratches on the rear of the casing), which shouldn't be happening. But the amount of CCW rotation was small enough that it didn't cause a misfire.

What I really badly need to know is, does anyone else use a relaxed grip on his 69, and does he also get the firing-pin scratches? So far, no one who uses a relaxed grip has come forward.

I'm not sure you'll find too many people or any people that shoot the 69 with a relaxed grip. And how would you know if it was the same level of relaxation as you?

I think what you badly need to know is if 'you' shoot it with an 'un-relaxed' grip, will you get different results. Or have someone else shoot it with an un-relaxed, i.e., usual grip.

 

[shocker]

I'm not sure you'll find too many people or any people that shoot the 69 with a relaxed grip. And how would you know if it was the same level of relaxation as you?

I think what you badly need to know is if 'you' shoot it with an 'un-relaxed' grip, will you get different results. Or have someone else shoot it with an un-relaxed, i.e., usual grip.

I shot a a fair number of 5% under max 44 mag loads out of a 69 one handed and I don't lock my elbow, which I suppose qualifies as relaxed. No problems.

 

[stu1ritter]

I don't see how you can shoot a revolver with a relaxed grip. One of the tenants of accurate pistol shooting is the "hard grip".

Stu

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Have you checked the cylinder hand spring tension ?

My problem doesn't have anything to do with the hand.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I'm not sure you'll find too many people or any people that shoot the 69 with a relaxed grip. And how would you know if it was the same level of relaxation as you?

I think the fact that the last agent I talked to at S&W told me that the problem is entirely due to my "limp-wristing" indicates that he has been getting a lot of calls similar to mine.

I think what you badly need to know is if 'you' shoot it with an 'un-relaxed' grip, will you get different results.

I AM going to do that. And I fully expect that with a very firm grip, there will be no problem. But that doesn't solve my problem, because I'm not going to give up using my relaxed grip ... it just makes shooting the full-power loads much much nicer.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I shot a a fair number of 5% under max 44 mag loads out of a 69 one handed and I don't lock my elbow, which I suppose qualifies as relaxed. No problems.

Did your 69 have the factory mainspring in it? If so, that wouldn't expose the problem.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

I don't see how you can shoot a revolver with a relaxed grip. One of the tenants of accurate pistol shooting is the "hard grip".

I've found that I'm more accurate with the relaxed grip than with a firm grip. And the relaxed grip makes the recoil of the full-power rounds much nicer ... it doesn't shake my neck, eyes, teeth, or brain, and it doesn't beat up or bruise my hands.

 

[ameridaddy]

Do you remember exactly how the timing was "off"?

I don't know what he filed, resprung or replaced; I'm not a gunsmith and understand just the rudiments of the S&W action. I do know the gun would jump a chamber more and more frequently in double action and would spit lead bits and powder out the barrel/cylinder gap more and more often even on single action. Neighboring shooters would look around and tell me something was stinging their side facing me. One time I felt something tickling my neck and swatted at the "bug". My hand came away bloody because a shaving bounced off the forcing cone or frame and went back through my right ear. After that, the first missed cylinder meant a trip to Fred. I could speculate that the pounding wore the hand and the frame stretch took it out of contact with the cylinder too early or burr(s) developed on the stop grooves?

In any case, Fred called it "retiming."
Now "out of time" to me is a double action problem where the hammer drops on the pull before the cylinder is home in full lockup.
Silhouette is single action shooting, but nonetheless, my gun would start skipping cylinders and spitting lead even in single action. I have to figure the cylinder was not going into lockup after I cocked the hammer. I could make the problem occur more often by shooting double action, so to me it has to be an issue of hand fit and everything staying where it belongs and not flexing, stretching, or bending. A few thou here and there makes a big difference in that precision mechanism. Fred did a trigger job on all my Smiths (K-22, K-38, (2) M-19's, M-28, M-27, M-25-2) for a superb smooth single and double action, but both my 29's were the only ones that ever got "out of time", bent a crane or shaved lead.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

[...]
I do know the gun would jump a chamber more and more frequently in double action
[...]

I'm not sure what you mean by "jump a chamber". It mostly SOUNDS like you mean that the cylinder gets rotated, during the recoil, too FAR in the CCW direction ... i.e., it rotates MORE than it should. THAT'S the problem that I'm having in my 69, in SA mode (I don't ever shoot it in DA mode).

After that, the first missed cylinder meant a trip to Fred. I could speculate that the pounding wore the hand and the frame stretch took it out of contact with the cylinder too early or burr(s) developed on the stop grooves?

Here, it sounds like the opposite problem: that the cylinder is not rotating CCW ENOUGH, and so the round to be fired is aligned slightly to the left off the bore. That's NOT the problem I'm having.

Now "out of time" to me is a double action problem where the hammer drops on the pull before the cylinder is home in full lockup.

Again, this sounds like the opposite problem from mine ... too LITTLE rotation, not too MUCH rotation. And it is referring to rotation NOT during the recoil, but during the cocking.

I have to figure the cylinder was not going into lockup after I cocked the hammer.

Again, sounds like too LITTLE rotation. The opposite of my problem.